Wednesday, 16 April 2008

What happened on the day Madeleine disappeared?

Angela Balakrishnan

10am: The sixth day of the McCanns' week-long holiday in the Algarve. The couple place their daughter, Madeleine and her twin siblings, Sean and Amelie, in the Ocean Club's Kids Club while they go for a walk.

12.30pm: After collecting the children, Kate and Gerry head to their apartment, 5a, on ground floor of block five of the Waterside Village Gardens, for lunch before going to the Ocean Club swimming pool.

2.29pm: The last photograph of Madeleine is taken at the pool. The camera clock reads 1.29pm but the family says it was out by one hour.

3.30pm: Children return to Kids Club.

5.30pm: Children eat dinner at Kids Club.

6pm: Kate takes children back to apartment while Gerry goes to an hour-long tennis lesson.

6.30pm: Gerry asks David Payne, one of the so-called "tapas seven", to check on Kate and the children at the apartment.

7pm: Gerry returns to the apartment and the children are put to bed in the front bedroom overlooking the car park and beyond it, the street. Madeleine is placed in the single bed nearest the door. There is an empty bed against the opposite wall beneath the window. Between the two beds are two travel cots containing the twins.

7.30pm: The McCanns shower and change.

8pm: The couple share a bottle of wine together.

8.35pm: The McCanns are the first of the group to arrive at the tapas restaurant, 50 yards away from their apartment.

8.55pm: The group has ordered starters when the routine of checking on the children begins. Matt Oldfield goes to check his own apartment. He also tells the Paynes, who are still in their apartment, that the group is waiting for them at the restaurant.

9.05pm: Gerry returns to the apartment through the unlocked patio doors to check on the children. Earlier that week, the McCanns had used a key to go in through the front door next to the children's bedroom but, worrying the noise might wake the children, they began using the patio doors, leaving them unlocked.

He enters the apartment and sees that the children's bedroom door, which they always left slightly ajar, is now open to 45 degrees. Thinking this is odd, he glances into his own bedroom to see if Madeleine has gone into her parents' bed. But he sees that all three are still fast asleep where the McCanns left them. Putting the door back to five degrees, he went to the toilet and then returned to the restaurant. This is the last time he would see his daughter.

9.08pm: Gerry sees Jeremy Wilkins, another holidaymaker at the resort, on the opposite side of the road as he walks back to the tapas bar and crosses over to talk. Wilkins and his partner are eating in their apartment since their youngest child will not settle. The two men spend several minutes talking.

9.10pm: Jane Tanner walks up the road, unnoticed by Gerry and Wilkins, although she sees them. She spots a man walking quickly across the top of the road in front of her, going away from the apartment block and heading to the outer road of the resort complex. He is carrying a sleeping girl in pink pyjamas who is hanging limply in his arms. The sighting is odd, but hardly exceptional in a holiday resort. Her daughter is fine; Tanner returns to the table.

9.30pm: Kate gets up to make next check on her children but Matthew Oldfield and Russell O'Brien are checking, too. Oldfield offers to check the McCann's children.

In the McCanns' apartment, Oldfield notices the children's bedroom door is open again, but this means little to him. He merely observes all is quiet and makes a cursory glance inside the room seeing the twins in their cot, but not directly seeing Madeleine's bed from the angle at which he stood. Afterwards, he could not say for sure if she had been there or not. Nor could he say if the window and shutter had been open.

He would later get a hard time from the police because of this. During his interviews, he was aggressively accused of taking Madeleine, coming under suspicion because he had offered to take Kate's turn.

10.00pm: Kate checks on the children. She becomes alarmed when she reaches out to the children's bedroom door and it blows shut. Inside the room, the window is open and the shutter is up. The twins are sleeping but Madeleine's bed is empty.

Shortly after 10pm: Rachael Oldfield goes to Tanner's apartment to tell her Madeleine has been taken. Tanner says: "Oh my God. I saw a man carrying a girl."

10.15pm: Oldfield goes down to the 24-hour reception at the bottom of the hill to raise the alarm. Police are called

11.10pm: Police arrive. They see there is a latch lock on the sliding glass window. The McCanns thought, but could not be sure they had locked it at the start of the holiday. Later it was discovered that it was common for cleaners to open the shutters and windows to give the rooms an airing, so there is no way of knowing whether the window was locked that night or not. With no forensic evidence either, it is possible the abductor could have easily used the front door.

3.30am: Detectives from the Policia Judiciaria leave. The McCanns claim they noticed no further police action that night.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/apr/11/madeleinemccann

170 comments:

Sass said...

Kiwigirl, Mark, Alroy

Could you send me a quick e-mail (using any old throwaway account) to
nowwherearewe@yahoo.co.uk
Thanks!

Gina said...

Good Morning

"What happened the day Madeleine disappeared?"

Many people have speculated, presumed, written based on ??? but the bottom line is, like it or not,
nobody other than those involved know the truth. Whether they are telling the truth remains to be seen. That just about sums this article up for me.

However if you would like to be as confused as I am, it was reported that in the leaks JT said she did not leave the table, but if you read the Spanish TV report transcript it does not say that at all and if that is not confusing enough CM did not make a big fuss about this point, just about the leaks in general. Think it is time for me to ask confused.com. Have a good day, Bye all

kiwigirl said...

Hi Sass
Have sent an eamil, hope it gets there. If I don't hear back from you will try another account!

I truly hope that there is some news on Madeleine shortly, the waiting for an answer must be absolutely soul destroying for Kate and Gerry.

NZ is reeling tonight with the loss of six lives at OPC in National Park, around Taupo. All young adults aged 16 - 17, all leaders and all enjoying their time in the outdoors of NZ. A teacher also lost his life while with these students...the waiting for these parents must have been interminable, so just imagine how it must feel after a year....

Tulip said...

Kiwigirl, there has also been a bus disaster in S America in which several young UK gap year kids were killed.

I'm sure their parents were a bit worried about sending them -- now maybe feel they shouldn't -- but realised that the young must spread their wings. Imagine getting that phone call ...

Good luck with signing in -- I was completely useless and still don't really know how I did it, I just kept pressing links that looked vaguely encouraging! Sass, never tell anyone the details of my cringeworthy efforts!! You know the power of witches ...

Gina, hi, nice to see you. I had a stiff neck after our debate yesterday.

Yes, nobody really knows what exactly happened and the reports are so contradictory that one can't rely on any of them.

I just hope things aren't left in limbo. It would not be good for anyone.

Tulip said...

Oops, as Marga would say 'I'm forgetting my manners' (don't laugh now).

So ... good morning to all those who are here, visible or invisible. Mum I'm sure it's safe to come out ... miss you.

Gina said...

Hi Tulip, typing whilst hanging on for a humaniod to answer the phone, sick of the music!!!!

It was nice to talk yesterday, not that we solved the case. There were a few things people mentioned on Vivs blog last night that I wanted to ask them about but I have not been able to get back on the site. Perhaps it is just as well as I spend too long debating anyway and can contribute nothing that is going to make a difference, and as you say we only end of with the stick neck, and probably a numb bum :-)

Mandz said...

Morning All,

The whole case is absolutely heartbreaking and torturing for the parents. I pray someone somewhere comes forward and tells where she is or what happened it’s unfair and cruel to be left in limbo. I hope Met3 are onto something.

As for JT she has gone on record on TV panorama and gave her version therefore if there are any major worrying inconsistencies or contradictions in her original statement then the PJ can use this against her surely Or called her back? People seem to expect some accurate “timed” account of exactly what happened however it’s natural there will be some inconsistencies and I’m sure what happened on the night would have sent these people into shock horror therefore I doubt anyone could give an “accurate” statement in the first few weeks.

Bye for now...

SwedishMum said...

Good morning all! (my intention was to post this on both “rivalling” blogs but I have not been able to post on Viv’s so I’ll have to settle for one)

Like Gina (thank you Gina for your message yesterday) said the other day I’m like a cuckoo in all this, I don’t belong here and I don’t belong there. I happen to like people on both blogs (I think you know who you are and you are rather many). And to my own surprise I’ve discovered that I dislike some people as well (I hope that you don’t know who you are though). That is a surprise to me since I usually don’t go around disliking people and in this case we’re talking about persons I’ve never even met, in real life I mean.

I’m quite sure that if we all met I would appreciate the vast majority of you and yet there doesn’t seem to be a way to post on both blogs without people taking offence. To be honest, I miss “the good old DE-days” (not all of them though). I fully understand why DE decided to pull the plug – but on their HYS I had a chance to chat with nice persons with a good sense of humour. And at times even contribute in my own little way to the debate (yes Doppel, I read what you wrote). I had a chance to simultaneously converse with humoristic gentlemen (well, you all know what I mean ;-)) like Big_L and Lazarus. I had a chance to exchange views with one of the nicest persons I’ve met online, Betty. Just to mention three persons I never “see” nowadays.

Anyway, I often hesitate to take part in the debate, partly because it’s so incredibly rigid. Either you think the McCanns are guilty (without any valid proof) and get cheered by those who support that theory. Or you think that the McCanns are innocent and accuse the PJ for being incompetent or worse (without any valid proof) and get cheered by those who support that theory.

I’m quite sure that Kate and Gerry McCann are going through hell and for that I feel genuinely sorry for them. I also feel truly sorry for all their relatives; this must be absolutely heartbreaking for them – especially if they themselves are doubtful as to what actually happened.

However, I personally can not for my life disregard the fact that these parents wilfully chose to leave their three little toddlers alone – night after night – in an (presumably) unlocked apartment in a foreign country. I honestly don’t care how “into” their friends they were. And I honestly don’t care how many thousands of other British parents have done it – that is in my opinion one of the lamest excuses of all.

You simply don’t leave toddlers alone like that. Period.

I can hear some of you sighing “oh no, not that again”, but it is essential. Because if we assume that Madeleine was abducted, then that’s not the PJ’s fault – for that the parents are to be blamed. For giving a creep the opportunity to take her. In this scenario there’s no doubt that the creep is the worst offender. But the parents still provided the opportunity. And that is something they’ll have to live with for the rest of their lives. Which is so, so sad and which unfortunately probably affect Madeleine’s two siblings as well.

I wrote earlier that I often hesitate to take part in the debate partly because it’s so stiff. Well the other reason I hesitate is that I actually don’t have very much to contribute with. I’ve kind of had my say and, so far, not very much has swayed my views.

Finally, a praise to Mum21, who yesterday showed what integrity is. Thank you for that – even though it had nothing to do with me.

(Apologies for the length of this post)

kiwigirl said...

Hi Tulip

I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of the Gap students in Sth America. We have a wonderful Gap student with us at the moment, and I am sure her parents must worry about her constantly, being on the other side of the world and all. The loss of young lives is simply awful and such a loss of potential. As a teacher I see young people starting to realise that they actually do have something to offer and that their voice is important and needs to be heard.

SwedishMum said...

Kiwigirl and Tulip,

so sorry to hear about those horrible accidents. It's always a tragedy when young lives are wasted. My thoughts go to their parents who must be struggling to go on at all. (I'm sorry if this sounds clumpsy, but I mean well)

Gina said...

Hi Swedish Mum good to see you and I share your views totally. Like you say we do not really belong anywhere, perhaps we should have an "on the fence"blog.

One of the problems, as I see it is, that those who are absolutely convinced that the McCanns had something to do with M's disappearance have written so strongly on the subject they are unable to step back for a moment and rethink the issues. At the same time those who have slammed the PJ will not listen to anything other than they are to blame. I personally cannot understand why they did not take the easy way out and go along with the abduction theory, you do not have to prove anything with that.

So here we are between a rock and a hardplace, two poor little cuckoos, ahhhhh

Tulip said...

Gina, you're right about the numb bum. Probably does nothing for the stomach muscles either!

No, we can't solve the case. We can just show support for those who are suffering, as best we can. And we've created a circle of invisible friends at the same time.

Hello Swedish Mum. I think the reason that things have degenerated into two separate blogs is the time all this has taken, with no real progress. It has polarised people.

I won't debate the neglect issue as it has been done to death. I wouldn't leave my toddlers alone either, if I still had any, but I, like many others, refuse to sit in judgment as there is no evidence that the McCann children were/are not very much loved.

If I came here from Mars with no knowledge of the case and read this blog and the other one I feel sure that I would form a strong opinion as to which were nicer people -- irrespective of who is wrong or right about the case.

I don't think a mutually respectful 'joint' blog is possible any more, owing to the infiltration of really batty people. And they are not here.

I'm sure in the DE days people on this blog had a soft spot for you and Gina even if we don't care for some of your new 'friends'.

I also realise that it is hard to take part in a blog full of people from another country, often making subtle points with very British allusions and I think you are brave to do so.

Did you know that, for decades, there was an 'informal 'competition' in the Times newspaper for the first Reader to write in that they had heard the first cuckoo of the year?!

SwedishMum said...

Glad you're still here Gina,

You know how I completely misunderstood Tulip the other day, about Swedish cuckoo. Well, it's really rather funny.
Here in Swedish we sometimes use the English word "cuckoo" to suggest that someone is a total nutter - so that's how I read it initially. (Hope you read this too Tulip, may give you an explanation to my reaction)
Honestly, could things be more silly?

kiwigirl said...

Hi Swedishmum

I agree with much of what you said. I knew Kate years ago when she was in NZ working in Wellington, and nicer person you could not hope to meet. I can't remeber meeting Gerry although I am sure there were times when he came over from the Hawkes Bay to see Kate.

The fact is though they did make a mistake in leaving the chldren alone in their apartment, and they have admitted this on many occasions. The only thing that I can see getting people's backs up is that they are actively trying to do something about it, eg with the Amber Alert system.

In my opinion they made a terrible error of judgement in leaving the children and this is something that they are going to have to live with for the rest of their lives. However, this does not mean that they are guilty of abusing their children or any of the other 'crimes' that are being levelled against them by others out there.

I think it is high time that the words compassion and empathy came back to our vocabulary and are applied to Kate and Gerry. After all we all make mistakes, and some people make mistakes that costs others their lives, look at the accident here in NZ today - but again this was an accident and a freak of nature. Yes, we could blame the instructor and the people in charge of OPC, but in the end you cannot control nature, just as Kate and Gerry could not control another persons actions.

Sorry I feel thsi is a bit muddled...hope you can all see what I am trying to say! Husband wanting the computer and rushing me!!

SwedishMum said...

Tulip,

we must have posted at virtually the same time, I hope you saw my allusion to "cuckoo".
And I don't think a mutually respectful 'joint' blog is possible any more either. Unfortunately for me and Gina. But maybe Gina is right, maybe we should start our own "on the fence"-blog :-)
Now, wouldn't that be something? Just the two of us, maybe with an occasional visit from Jojam and Isis, living happily ever after.

Tulip said...

Gina, yes, why did the PJ not just say 'OK, abduction' and save themselves hassle?

By the same token, why did the McCann's hang around making a big fuss in the face of huge obstacles and bitter attacks, when, if 'involved' they could have slunk back earlier to the Uk and kept a low profile? It flies in the face of logic.

SwedishMum said...

Kiwigirl,

I fully agree that we all make mistakes and I personally think that Kate does seem rather (or maybe even very) nice. A bit unsecure (but who wouldn't be under those circumstances) but nice.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Hi Swedishmum,

I'm going to disagree with you, but you know that anyway.

It is not the PJ's fault Madeleine was abducted you are right, an opportunity was presented but it gave no one the right to exploit it.

Whether we would have done it or not is irrelevant, they did based on how safe they felt. They know their childrens sleep patterns, we dont. The most that should have happened is that the children could have been crying for 20 minutes.

I'm in no way condoning it, but at the sametime I do not believe they would have left their children unless they believed they would be safe. Can you honestly believe when Kate kissed Madeleine goodnight she knew she would never see her again.

The rest is history. I have no problem with anyone criticising the McCs, I have done myself, but it doesnt help Madeleine.


I have a meeting to attend, have to go, part 2 follows later.....

kiwigirl said...

Hi Swedishmum

I can't say that I ever thought of Kate as being insecure, but then you never know how you would react in these sort of circumstances. I suspect that she has had her faith severely tested and maybe this comes across as insecurity or it is simply a nervousness when in front of cameras etc, after all Doctors aren't trained to deal with crowds of people like other professions are, and although I'm used to teaching 34+ children in a classroom, put me in front of tv cameras and I freeze!

SwedishMum said...

Thanks Tinks,

I just felt a need to clarify where I come from and I know that many think that it's ranting and I'm quite ok with that. But it was important for me to somehow explain myself.

Gina said...

Swedish Mum when I said I feel like a cuckoo I think in my case both meanings apply - lodging in someone elses nest and a nutter.

Re the neglect issue. I have mixed feelings on that. I think to use the word neglect is a bit strong because to me it infers uncared for etc. which I think not to be the case. There are a few words I would use instead though and I think you can guess what they are. Because we do not know the truth, NONE OF US, we are not sure this was just a one night thing, and it has been suggested that the children were left on other occasions which to me is just asking for trouble and extremely foolish putting it mildly. It could be as a result of ALL the group leaving their kids, their stories have all conflicted and this naturally made the PJ suspicious, what happend after that, who knows.

Bottom line is poor little Madeleine has gone and at the end of the day it doesn't matter who anybody tries to blame, it is not going to bring her back.

SwedishMum said...

Kiwigirl,

I believe most "ordinary" people freeze in front of tv cameras. I certainly wouldn't want to go in front of a camera during those circumstances.

Tulip said...

Swedish, only four people could get a bit boring! In any case I think most people are fence sitters to a certain degree -- this blog is not about solving anything.

We are here to fight for the right of a suffering couple to be treated as innocent until found guilty in a court of law. For their right not to be tried by the media, or by vindictive people who have issues to deal with in their own lives.

The term 'cuckoo' is also used here in the UK to mean someone who is a little, shall we say ' one slice short of a sandwich' (know that expression??) but of course this was not meant in this context, which Gina had already defined.

Anyway, as long as you don't push us out of our nest ...!

Mandz said...

Hi Swedishmum nice to see you!

I take your point and we are all agreed on that they should not have left their children alone along with the friends. I don’t see what the point is slating this couple and reminding them day in day out that they should not have left the children. They are well aware of this and they are the ones who will need to take this to their grave and for that I am sad for them. Jamie Bulgar mother will need to live with the fact that she let go her son’s hand in a shopping centre which resulted in abduction and I’m sure she does not need reminding. My anger is reserved for the abductor.

If the main issue for people is leaving the children then why is the McCann's friends never mentioned who left their chilren alone?

SwedishMum said...

Gina, your last sentence unfortunately is too true. I just hope that the truth - whatever it may be - is revealed some day (rather sooner than later). But I'm not very hopeful.

Gina said...

Oh dear time for me to go because already I feel that I am in disagreement.

Tinks - How can you say they thought the children were safe. Safe from an abductor maybe, but surely you do not need me to list the many things that could happen to small children left unattended.

Tulip - I think we discussed the issue of them making a fuss yesterday and it was my opinion and still is that they did not make enough fuss. They are doing now what they should have done then.

Like I said, opinions are too strong on both blogs and it is too hard for those who see it from both sides not to retaliate. So best thing to do IMO is go and do something else. Have a nice day, take care.

SwedishMum said...

Tulip,

no I hadn't heard that expression - but I do like it!

Hi Mandz! Nice to see you too,

I think you know the answer to that question. They weren't the ones unlucky enough to lose a child. At least I think that's why.
But I honestly didn't mean to start a discussion on the neglect issue, I was just explaining my views.

SwedishMum said...

Have a nice day Gina!

I'm off too, had only intended to contribute with my post but since it was really nice here I couldn't resist chatting away a little.

Have a nice day all!

Tulip said...

Gina, please don't scuttle away at the first sign of disagreement. Without differing views there is no debate. MPs don't race for the doors in parliament. Disagreement needn't be nasty -- I think the last couple of days here have proved that even those holding strong opinions have not got personal.

Hope you and the Swedish cuckoo will fly in often.

Sass said...

Hiya to anyone who is hanging around.


Tulip - won't tell them about your speedy login!

Gina said...

Tulip I am not scuttling aware honest, I just am not in the best of moods today for reasons that I will not bore you with, and I think I might just put my mouth into gear before my brain. Plus the fact, I have hair dye on and if I don't go and wash it off soon I will become a bald blogger. See you later x

kiwigirl said...

Hi Sass
Just wondering if you got my email if not then I can use another account

Tulip said...

Thanks Sass!!!
Gina, hair dye is certainly an overriding reason for departure. You don't want green hair.

See ya later I hope.

Sass said...

Hiya Kiwigirl

Got your e-mail, thank you!

Sass said...

Tulip/Gina

. . . or indeed no hair.

Rosiepops said...

Morning Everyone

It is no surprise that I agree with Mandz and Tulip.

The McCann's did wrong, they know they did wrong and they have admitted they did wrong, this is as much as they will ever owe the public and we have no right to inflict and expect them to suffer what we think they should be suffering.

I would like to point out here that we only have what we are told happened that night and that morning that Madeleine asked her mother that question, as ever we do not have the truth and we do not properly have the McCann's version of events, again we are getting a one sided simplistic view of a situation we were not privy to.

I have three of my children, several grandchildren and helped raise 5 others that were not my biological children, so I am not without a little experience in this area.
Common sense tells me to doubt that the McCann's heard the children crying and ignored them and I will reserve my judgement until I actually know the truth.

It is worth acknowledging here that not one of us actually know the truth, the only people that do are the McCann's and as yet they are unable to speak because they are unfairly gagged by an archaic secrecy law, a secrecy law that it appears OK for the PJ to adhere to or to break whenever it suits them.

The more this whole investigation goes on the more is being revealed about how inept the PJ seem to be and how unqualified they actually were to handle this investigation.

For those of you that think I am being harsh on the PJ, let me tell you that the laws of libel actually prevent me from writing here what I actually think is the case in Portugal.

I have long since come to the conclusions I have and they have not just been plucked out of the obscurity of thin air, it appears that I am far from the only person that thinks along the lines I do.

I believe at the end of the day we will know what happened to Madeleine McCann, but this news will not be easy for the Portuguese people to tolerate and it will cause Portugal and the Portuguese government much consternation.

All roads start out somewhere in a very pleasant place, but as you travel further down them, you are led to a dark and sinister place and if you do not believe me this is fine, you have only to embark on your own journey, do your own research, open your mind and your eyes and you will see for yourself.

Mandz said...

You know I think there is a lot of paranoia going around! It’s only a discussion and different view point. I think that when people disagree some see it as anger or tension but I don’t believe that to be the case.

Mandz said...

Morning Rosie!

Excellent post & well said!

Off now bye...

kiwigirl said...

Rosie, I believe you are right in your comments regarding the ineptness of the PJ etc.
You're also right in that no-one (except those that were there) really knows what happened that night, and we're not going to get the family's side until the secrecy law is lifted.

I sincerely hope that we do find out what happened to Madeleine, as living in limbo must be excruciating, and I fervently pray that it is something I never have to do!

In order for the system to be fixed though the truth must come out and when/if it does then people/organisations need to be held accountable for their actions, or lack of actions. People in positions of power, such as police etc need to realise that their actions must be transparent and if not then they can expect criticism.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Morning All,

Just popping in. Have just heard from Christabel, Karen Matthews is to be tried with Donovan for abduction. Not had the chance to read for myself yet.

Chris said she'll see you all tonight.

Bye from me for now.

Sass said...

Hiya Rosie and Mandz

Mandz, I am hardly ever on at the same time as you!

Rosie - check your e-mail, important!


Mandz - what you said about the way things are interpreted here. I agree! It is difficult sometimes, because you can't see if someone is smiling when they write it!

Sass said...

Hi and bye Tinks

Will have to have a quick butcher's!

x

Sass said...

http://news.sky.com/skynews/
article/0,,30100-1312985,00.html

Link about Karen Matthews

assassin said...

No abduction charge. Charges havent changed, perverting course of justice [in relation to abduction] and neglect.

Gina said...

Rosie, a serious question. If you can put aside for one minute your opinions of what the PJ have not done, should have done etc. Can you please explain to me the question that I have repeatedly been asking, and the one because not answered makes me stay on the fence.

Why would the PJ accuse the McCanns if they had nothing positive to go on. Why did they not just accept it was an abduction and do like many police forces throughout the world, look for a while then give up.

I am not around for a while but will look back with interest to see if anyone has an answer for me-

TTFN

kiwigirl said...

Nite nite all!!

It's now 10.17pm and it's another full day at work tomorrow...goodness only knows what it will bring - one day is never the same as the next in a high school!

Time to try and read a bit of my book and get at least one hours sleep before the wee man wakes up and comes running across the hallway to my bed - poor husband woke up about 4am and found himself mostly off the bed due to our son taking up a LOT of room lying sideways across the bed, ARGH!!!

Will try and read back tomorrow night, take care!

Sass said...

Night Kiwigirl!

Tulip said...

Swedish Mum.

Good example here of mysterious English terminolgy. Sass is going to have a quick 'butchers'. No, she is not going to eat a steak, murder anyone or have a quickie with the local meat vendor. She is going to have look. This is Cockney rhyming slang as 'look' is related to butcher's hook (?). In the same way they call stairs 'apples and pears' Or their wife their ' trouble and strife'.

You can never hope to understand this -- and I have great sympathy for you if you are baffled!

Sass said...

Tulip

Hadn't even thought twice about using that! Love the options you gave - going to have a quickie with a butcher!

kiwigirl said...

Just saw your comment Gina and felt compelled to reply.

Maybe the PJ saw accusing Kate and Gerry as the easy way out, not thinking that perhaps they might 'fight' back. Maybe they thought that they would be a pushover to get them to 'confess' after all they were foreigners in a foreign country, one in which the police historically have been corrupt. Maybe they thought that Kate would be a 'soft touch' after all she is a woman, holidaying in a country where women are historically seen as the weaker sex.

No-one will ever really know why they chose not to keep that line of inquiry open, however, the fact that no-one has 'broken ranks', and that Madeleine has not yet been found suggests to me that she is being very well hidden somewhere by someone who does not want her found. Suffice to say I don't think you can ever rule out any line of inquiry in these sorts of cases.

Missing people cases must be one of the hardest cases for any police force to tackle, let alone one that doesn't have much experience with dealing with them.

This probably doesn't answer your questions, and I probably getting more and more muddled, but had better go as I think I hear little footsteps!! Nite!

Rosiepops said...

Gina

The simple reason is because I believe they are hiding something and covering up for someone or some people, who may or may not be in positions of trust or authority and also to admit this was an abduction, would hit their tourist industry heavily.

I would not travel to a country where I thought little children were not safe in their beds at night, no matter if they were left while their parents ate nearby or not.

In my opinion there is something intrinsically wrong in Portugal and unfortunately I believe that Madeleine McCann is only the tip of the iceberg.

Also it is impossible to separate what happened to Madeleine from the inadequacies of the PJ, they are all linked, something appears to be very wrong here.

Things do not stack up, there are too many inconsistencies within this investigation on the PJ side. I believe that it is the PJ that need to answer questions in the form of a Public inquiry. I also think that they need to be investigated by an outside force.

For those of you that persistently scream that if the McCann's are innocent they have nothing to fear, then this is the same for the PJ.

If the PJ had anything at all with which to charge the McCann's don't you think they would have done it by now?

At some point the McCann's will be able to get the files on this investigation and when they do, then much is going to be revealed.

Tulip said...

Sass

In case quickie is also a linguistic mystery how about a 'short social interlude mit Herr Fleischenschneider?'

Sass said...

Tulip

You have such a way with words!

Tulip said...

Kiwi and Gina

Why did the police not opt for abduction rather than blaming the parents?

Don't know of course, as I'm not the PJ, but possibly they
realised that abduction would be a terrible blow to the Algarve's image as a safe holiday destination and local business. I bet local police have relations all over PDL running restaurants, guesthouses etc.

It meant they could blame everything on foreigners and leave the sunny local image intact.

They didn't expect the McCanns to fight back and then it was too late. Now they have to defend that position.

Just my theory.

Gina said...

Rosie, I am still very confused myself about the whole issue, something is just not stacking up and I cannot put my finger on it and am trying to work it out for myself without being influenced by anybody or anything.

What does not stack up is if as you say they did not go along with the abduction theory because of the tourist trade, then what did they hope to achieve by blaming the McCanns, knowing full well that if they could not prove their guilt they were showing themselves up as being incompetent. Neither scenario makes sense to me.

Regards not going to Portugal, well I cannot see that Portugal is any more or less safe than anywhere in the world. Every country has skeletons in the cupboard. Much has been made of Casa pia, which I agree is tragic, but let us wait and see what the Jersey investigation brings to light and many other places I could mention. I would be interested to know how Helen feels about this as she lives in PDL, has she suddenly seen the place in a different light and thinking of moving out.

I posted yesterday early, that I thought a system should be devised to pull all EU police forces into line, maybe you did not see it, but I think if you read it it will be something that we will both agree on.

Really have to do now, thanks for your reply

Tulip said...

Gina, your hair must be bright green by now! Or was there time for a rinse out?

The PJ may have thought that they could leave Kate and Gerry in a legal limbo -- not being able to prove anything but getting most people to think 'they weren't charged, but we all know what happened' -- and that is what IS happening, isn't it? Except that the McCanns aren't lying down and accepting it.

This could be what is enraging them.

I'm sure Helen wouldn't think of moving for this reason as she lives there and knows the place. But holidaymakers are very skittish. They have masses of holiday choices and many might decide 'better safe than sorry, let's make it Mallorca this year.'

Gina said...

Rosie I forgot to say, is there anywhere that is safe anymore.

Many people came to Spain for various reasons and one of which was because they did not feel safe in the UK. I live in an area which is virtually crime free, however last week someones villa was broken into during the night, the man woke to find both he and his wife had a gun to their heads, which remained there whilst others robbed the place. Now that is scary and to be honest I am not sure if we have enough police in this area to cope with this sort of thing if it becomes commonplace. However I doubt it will put off people coming, but you can never tell

Gina said...

Tulip I rinsed, then the phone went again, and I got left hanging on with music again, and so I posted. I eventually got the through and was told the person I want to speak to is on holiday. Hair has dried in the meantime so now have to go wet is again. Hope you are keeping up with all this!!!
Going to sort my barnet out and not answer the phone if it rings again

Mandz said...

Gina,

IMO:
The World was watching and the spot light was on them and they needed to have someone to blame.

Look how quickly Murat got made a “suspect” however they could not find anything on him so the next best thing was the McCann’s. IMO it is easier to blame the parents who left their children alone than admit to child snatchers in their Country which would frighten off the Tourists. Can you imagine the amount of money that Country (who rely on Tourist money) would loose? You only have to remember the McCann family being physically pushed out of the Airport when they tried to put up pictures of Maddie. I was horrified when I saw this on the news.

It puts peoples minds at rest to think the parents are involved than child snatchers predator in their Country who would take a child from their bed. Far easier to blame the parent’s IMO.

As for the evidence… If they had anything of great importance then they would have been charged and same goes for Murat who is still a suspect.

Strange though this same man "Suspect Amarel” who was in charge of both cases blamed both parents whose children were taken from the same area when he has little experience with these types of cases?

Tinkerbell43 said...

I agree pretty much with all comments as to why the PJ put the focus on K & G rather than admit they had an abduction case on their hands and I think, I have read somewhere, that these were Kates words too.

IMO, I believe Murat knows more than he is saying but I do not believe there is any hard evidence that can actually link him to it.

Therefore I think the case was floundering. I believe with the whole worlds eyes on Portugal, the PJ did not want to appear clueless and their attention turned on the McCanns.

IMO, it took the spotlight off of them and their incompetence, they knew due to the Secrecy Law the Mccanns would be gagged, therefore the PJ were now free to manipulate public opinion accordingly.

IMO they have used every dirty trick in the book, making sure when it comes to shelving the case, the air of suspicion will forever be left, firmly hanging over K & G heads.

Tulip said...

Yes, Mandz and Tinks, that's exactly my take on the situation too.

Gina said...

Sorry Mandz and all we will have to agree to disagree. There were pictures in PDL long after the McCanns left, the police did not insist they were taken down. Regards putting them in the airport, well there are mixed opinions on that. How many kids are there missing, how many posters do you allow???

I have yet to be convinced that a police force, any police force would concern itself about the tourist industry before anything else. So I have to remain where I have always been, open minded about the whole issue.

helenm said...

Gina,

Believe me when I say that as the investigation has progressed (or not as the case may be) my faith in the legal system has been put to the test. I have no axe to grind, I am a law abiding citizen and believe that if you make your home in a country then you abide by their rules and regulations, not continually making comparisons with your country of birth, (although this can be very frustrating especially with our background). Having saidthat I do know that citizens in Portugal have a 'fear' of the PJ, and not because they are not law abiding, but there will always be others that will tell you different. I can only go off what I know and hear. I cannot even call it a 'healthy respect' as I think most people in Britain have for their police. Maybe I am wrong but that is my opinion. IMO the reason for this fear is intrinsically linked with the judicial secrecy laws.

My husband and I (sound like the Queen!!!) have thought of moving away from Portugal at times, but for a combination of reasons, not solely because of the Madeleine investigation. However, those thoughts are usually short lived and I can honestly tell you that we do enjoy living here but do cross our fingers that we will not run into trouble. I can tell you though that if you think the Mccann's are making noises you haven't seen my hubby when he gets the bit between his teeth!!

Mandz said...

Gina,

As far as I know there are not that many children missing in Portugal so what was the big deal in putting up one picture in an Airport in the Country where she went missing from? As I said I was horrified when I saw them being physically pushed out.

As for police force one only has to look at Goa police force to see they were trying to protect their Tourist Money just like Portugal IMO! I have not been convinced the PJ ever put Maddie first.

Yes we will need to agree to disagree!

Gina said...

Helem, thanks for your opinion. I have not tangled with the police here in Spain so I cannot comment on them first hand. Like Portugal the are "different" to the UK, but as you say I live in Spain and therefore have to accept their ways and their system. To be honest I do not really understand the different types of police we have. There are the local police and then the group with the big boots and guns that are affliated to the army. When they blow their whistle you stop and no messing. However if it works, I will not Knock it. The teenager do not run rings around the police here and any trouble is quickly sorted.

Ok it is coming up to siesta time, so I am turning all Spanish now and going to sleep in the sun

Gina said...

Helen have you seen the news on sic I think it said the PJ are going to sue CM, but don't take my word for it check it out for yourself

calcite51 said...

Now, what a good opportunity to bring up.....

was this May 2 or May 3? Shall we have a two day debate about this? Just teasing, we know the daycare workers at the creche saw Madeleine on May 3.

I'm also not willing to get on the bandwagon and criticise the McCanns for leaving three young children alone. In hindsight, it turned out to be a poor decision and yet...

From what I gather, there were baby-sitters available but they had to be booked months ahead of time.

There was also a listening service offered (hired help listening at the door to see if the children were crying). IF that part is true, then the McCanns and their friends did more than that - they actually went into the apartments.

Guests who stayed at Mark Warner's resorts must have been given a false sense of security with the listening service being offered.

Now for the PJ's. I have been very critical of the PJ's. I admit this and I do NOT apologize to the PJ's or to Portugal. What struck me as very, very odd, is when Mrs. Murat set up a booth for potential witnesses to speak to her if they did not feel comfortable going to the PJ's.

That she should even be ALLOWED to do this blows me away and it is not only because her son was to become an Arguido. I have never heard where a citizen is allowed to set up a booth to receive evidence on an on-going case. Just the fact that ordinary citizens did not or would not go to their PJ's with information, well that spoke volumes to me.

And then when I was informed that some of the PJ's were being investigated for wrong doing in a separate missing child case it did not endear the PJ's or Portugal to me. I have never heard of any country that allows investigators to continue their jobs while they themselves being under investigation.

Most investigators are given the time off with or without pay but are not allowed to continue their jobs until a review of their conduct is completed.

Good morning Gina, Sass, Kiwigirl, Tulip et al.

calcite51 said...

And as far as the PJ's suing Clarence Mitchell, surely the PJ's would be better off finding out where the weakest link is and where the many leaks are coming from in my opinion. The PJ's are becoming Portugal's public relations nightmare.

Tulip said...

Hello Calcite

There is some disagreement about whether Mark Warner actually offered that service at the crucial time, but even if they did not, they did in other resorts and it seems to have been an accepted way of doing things.

Haven't we all been psychologically pressured into believing something is OK because everyone else is doing it? One doesn't want to seem neurotic.

I wouldn't have personally done this -- but I can think of other times and other issues ...

joanypony said...

Hi Everyone,

Rosie very good post.

I have always wondered why the PJ went from saying that the McCanns were not suspects in Madeleine's disappearance to suddenly making them arguidos.

My own feeling is that the guy who was in charge at the beginning made such a mess of the investigation, had no other ideas to follow so he had to save face and therefore blamed the McCanns.

Then in the case of the DNA 'evidence' I always felt that because the results were not what the PJ had said they were they threw the rattle out of the pram and started to leak things to smear the McCanns and this is exactly what has happened with the re-questioning, IMO.

Mandz said...

Hi Calcite!

Good points!

Yes why did Mrs Murat set this up for people to come forward? Perhaps people in PDL know more however are afraid to come forward - because it could back fire of them? Who knows but someting is not right...IMHO.

Off for lunch!

Gina said...

Mandz

Mandz said...
Gina,

As far as I know there are not that many children missing in Portugal so what was the big deal in putting up one picture in an Airport in the Country where she went missing from? As I said I was horrified when I saw them being physically pushed out.
.................................

In theory I totally agree with you, what is the harm in one poster, but before I would get incensed about it I would question whether it is airport policy not to allow any private posters without permission and perhaps permission was not asked. This is all I have been saying all along we criticise without being aware of the true facts and make more of the issue than there is a need for.

Re this issue over Clarence being sued, well to be honest if it shuts him up for a while it is a good thing IMO he is doing the MCanns more harm than good at the moment. The PJ have to charge or release the McCanns soon, and IMO he should have waited and not aggreviated the situation. Nothing he says at the moment will change the PJ line of thinking. It's like a bullfight, the bull will run around a bit, but once they start stabbing it in the back, it charges at you full speed ahead.

calcite51 said...

Tulip, see it's not you - it's me. Everybody fall asleep when I come in. I have that calming effect on everyone - probably bore everyone with my long posts.

calcite51 said...

Gina, I really don't agree with you about Mr. Mitchell. I'm glad he is speaking out against the leaks.

I think Mr. Mitchell has a difficult job but I thank him everyday for being there for the McCanns - the McCanns have been attacked too many times - at least he acts as a deflector for these unprovoked attacks (in my opinion).

Mandz said...

Tinks well said 12:20 and snap!!!

Mark55 said...

Hi Everyone,

Can't stop, just wanted to say it's nice to see Gina posting here.

Perhaps more people on Vile's blog will see sense and leave Viv to stew in her own cauldron.

What a load of Sad Acts they all are over there!

Tinkerbell43 said...

Hi Calcite,

Just popping in on troll patrol.

I agree with your post 13:19.

When the media, imo, fed by the PJ, made it open season against the McCanns, they needed to be shielded and that is exactly what CM has done irrespective of whether people like him or not.


Off again :0)

Tinkerbell43 said...

Hey Mandz,

Well said to you too, lol.

That was uncanny!

See you later.

Mandz said...

Gina,
Perhaps they did not ask for permission and that’s fair enough however was there any need for the police to physically push them out? Could they not have just asked..

Mandz said...

Mark55

Nice to see you!! Hope all well.

Mandz said...

Tinks & Calcite!

Re:CM
Now I see why he got that job - it all makes sense..The British Government are much more aware that we think..

Mandz said...

Tinks!

Weird eh 12.20 great minds think alike! Maybe we should do the lottery!!!

Right going for a cuppa...

Sass said...

Mandz

I always turn up when you're off for a cuppa!

Mark55 said...

Mandz,

Fine thanks, hope you are well too. The sun's shining so I'm off outside to wash the car!

I keep thinking about Rosie saying the Arguido status will be lifted this week, I can't wait for friday to see the reaction on Vile's blog.

They will go into meltdown!

Got to go now, bye.

Sass said...

Hiya Mark, Calcite, Tinks

How's it all going?

calcite51 said...

Good morning, Sass - well, I think I've pretty everybody to sleep with my long comments. I should go join the other blog and put them to sleep - oops, they won't have me I'm sure. It's going good - i'm ready to go to work now. Will look in tonight.

Mark, I always enjoyed reading your comments - they are fairminded and very balanced..

calcite51 said...

Sorry everbody - that first sentence should have read -I think I've pretty much put everybody to sleep....

Tulip said...

Nice to see you Mark.

Yes, it's good to have Gina here with or without her domestic tip of the day!

There's no need for disgreement to prevent discussion -- in fact it should make everyone think.

Calcite, I'm nowhere near asleep -- what was that about??

calcite51 said...

Tulip - no one was responding to my comments so I was feeling pretty lonely (just like you were yesterday morning) and let's not go there again. You know who showed up...

Sass said...

Hiya Calcite

If you really put people to sleep, I'd apply for honorary membership to the other blog for you :-)

calcite51 said...

Okay, like the song that says all my bags are packed, I'm ready to go... Nope, I'm not going far - just to work. Everyone have a great day - I will read everything tonight when I get home.

Take care - keep safe!

Sass said...

Just checking in - see you later Calcite (have a good work day) and Tulip!

Tulip said...

Ha ha -- people read but do not always comment!

We won't go there as you say ...

calcite51 said...

You do that Sass - I'm sure you have as much chance as hell freezing over.

No, I really don't want to go over there - I have never seen people who are so self righteous and full of themselves.

Sass said...

Calcite, I'm sorry - it's too late! I've already sold ya!

calcite51 said...

Well, Sass it would save 2345 from Clawdia - Clawdia would have someone else to be abusive to and she has been might abusive with me.

calcite51 said...

Sass I think I was rejected on the other blog - I don't even think you could offer the other blog 500,000 pounds and they still wouldn't accept me.

Sass said...

Calcite

You'd better stay here then - till we find a higher bidder at least!

calcite51 said...

It reminds me of when I first found Alsabella's blog (after DE shut us down). Everyone was getting the biggest welcome - I was read the riot act by Alsabella about being polite to everyone.

Sass said...

Calcite

I got booted off!

Gina said...

I have just been reading Viv's blog but I cannot post on it as I am not a member. I have sent 2 emails to Viv but got no reply so if anybody from that blog is looking in please feel free to post this on her site too.

I & Swedish Mum have had some good conversations on here even on views we disagree with and we both have our likes and dislikes of certain posters on both sites (no names necessary). I personally feel that it is unfair for either blog to accuse everybody who posts on a certain blog to be the same as all the rest.

Many people have become passionate about their views, and although you may not share those views it does not mean that that person is stupid or whatever phrase you choose to use. I doubt the die hards will give up blogging until this case is finalised, but it is not too late to stop all the personal abuse and just debate.

I know what it feels like to be personally attacked so I sympathise with all that have had the same treatment, but to continously do it is really pathetic IMO, we all have different views and tastes,(some people even like Marmite ahhh).

Opinions on the McCanns and the PJ are now too deep routed to be changed but how about us just sticking to chitter chatter or the case in hand without attacking each other personally. I tried this before on the DE and it did no good, so I used to mess up the blog with cleaning tips till things calmed down. It would be nice to be able to debate again both points of view. I am longing for the time when blogs get through the day without the need to attack someone on a personal level.

SwedishMum said...

Gina, here I come on to give a message to Tulip - and there you are writing such an excellent post. I would like to add that my post 9:48 was meant for both blogs too (hope you don't mind Sass, Rosie and Tinks).

Tulip (this is what I actually came on for),

I'd like to thank you sooo much for intruducing me to the "mysterious" cockney. It seems like an extremely colourful language/dialect and I am grateful. My only previous experience is from My Fair Lady/Pygmalion and frankly that's not quite the same.

Now I'm off again, Bye!

Mandz said...

Hi Gina,

Marmite yuk!

It’s good to have a debate however it’s important not to take it as a personal attack if someone disagrees. All it means is that they have a different view from you and will say so – no big deal unless the person is being abusive and writing LIKE THIS GET IT!!. We can agree to disagree surely and put that aside and talk about other things. I thought Swedishmum post was very good however I don’t agree with it but it’s her view and I respect that and to a degree see where she and you are coming from.

Must dash the kettle is ready!

Gina said...

Hi Swedish, when you have more time I can teach you a few slang words that I don't think many on here will have even heard. My folks come from the Eastend of London where this all orginated from. Off myself now, sulking because it has started raining

Gina said...

Mandz when I refer to personal attack I do mean just that not a different view point situation. No need to call people sick, loony, liars, sh-t stirrers etc etc. you known what I mean.

At least we have learned already we have one thing in common, we hate Marmite, but I have to tell you I think you drink too much tea:-)

Tulip said...

I LIKE MARMITE!

SwedishMum said...

OK, I give up. I'm in the middle of cooking dinner and really haven't got time for this but:
What is marmite???

(And Gina, I'll take a raincheck on the slang. Thanks)

assassin said...

Check the wording of the pj statement. It is another size 11 desperate foot. Predictable again too.

I hope Clarence is having a good laugh at them suggesting they will sue. They will come very unstuck and more exposed if they try that i think.

If they are shouting about sueing Clarence, when he has said nothing wrong or untrue, every single one of us that has been bold enough to speak out strongly on pj corruption and tacticts should stand right behind clarence and ASK to be sued too.

I'd like to see the PJ's response if faced with thousands of people demanding the same injustice from them as they are dishing Kate, Gerry, Family & Clarence.

Maybe an online petition to the PJ requesting to be sued or charged would be a thought:-)

Gone again, just passing on a thought:-)

Gina said...

Swedish Marmite is a digusting tasting brown beef extract which some people put on toast. I think they use something similar on those twiglet biscuits if you know what they are.

First lesson (you do not want) Rupert bear - swear

Tulip said...

Gina, Marmite is a delicious dark beef-and-yeast based savoury spread that can also be used as a base for bouillon etc.

Secret is not to use too much.

Tulip said...

Sass you have mail.

SwedishMum said...

Gina/Tulip,

Is it kind of like Vegemite, I think I saw Marmite next to Vegemite on the shelves when we were downunder. But I must confess that I rushed by those shelves. You see, I've tasted Vegemite and as far as I'm concerned there's really no excuse for it (no offence though).
Really must dash now so
Bye for now!

Tulip said...

Swedish, yes, it's like Vegemite. Thought as a Swede you'd like it as it's so salty (like those herrings you all eat!!)

Mark55 said...

Gina, Swedish Mum

Great to see you posting here now.

Assassin and her friends really sorted Viv out on Sunday.

And if Viv can't even be bothered to answer her emails then that's her own look out.

She won't get many new members now will she LOL

And I'm sure if she opens the site up again she will have to shut it down again pretty damn quick ;-)

By the way do you have any cleaning tips for alloy wheels, it's just taken me ages to clean my luxury German saloon car.

I wonder how long it takes Doc Quack to clean his push bike?

Tulip said...

Hi Mark, nice to hear a no-nonsense male voice here now and again...

You must ask Gina about cleaning products! There's some good stuff in a tin for silverware, called Goddards. Any use??

As for Doc's bike, hope he has elastic in his knickers to keep his frilly skirt out of the way of the chain.

(Too hard to explain.)

Tulip said...

Mark, what's happening with your blog?

Mark55 said...

Tulip,

When I set my account up it said I had to set up a blog? I think I went wrong somewhere.

Great Dentist, rubbish on computers!

Gina said...

Mark thank you for your welcome.

Just to let you know Viv has answered her emails and I can now post there too. If it is considered by some to be wrong to post on both, well what can I say.

I am not going to comment on your comments on Viv and Doc you are entitled to your opinion, I just wished it would stop`.

Regards cleaning your alloys, the simple answer is, if you can afford the car, you can afford to have it valetted professionally.

Have to go now, speak again soon

Mark55 said...

Tulip,

He'll be wearing his knickers on his head when the Arguido status gets lifted this week.

Thank goodness for Rosiepops and her inside information ;-)

Mark55 said...

Gina

Thanks to the credit crunch we've all got to make cut backs somewhere.

When I tried to post on Viv's blog the other week my posts were all deleted straight away, so I suppose I am a bit biased.

Good to see you posting here anyway.

Mark55 said...

Tulip,

Got to go myself now, I just wanted to say hello to the new members.

It's nice to see people who are on the fence posting here, only people who agree with the Vile One 100% are allowed to post there these days.

Gina said...

Mark I and Swedish have the advantage (if you can call it that) we are on the fence regards who did what. As you know, I am critical of the McCanns regards the marketing of M and various other things, but no point me going over them again again, what is done is done, I just do not think they have handled it very well and although I accept they cannot speak for themselves I do not feel it necessary to have had some like Clarence, a member of the family would have made people warm to them more. I also question their choice of using Metodo. But as I said all too late now, and whilst I really care what happened to Madeleine, staying here at the moment and burning my pie which is in the oven, is not going to help find her. :-)

helenm said...

Welcome Mark, Hello ladies,

Mark, a friend has suggested brick cleaner!! for alloy wheels. It is an acid so don't use too much!! and please don't sue the messenger!.

Gina, IMO the police in any country are influenced in some way by the government. Portugal do depend on their tourist industry to quite a degree, I'm not sure of the exact figures but I know it is extremely high.

Sass said...

Hiya Our 'Ell

How ya doing?

Tulip - thanks for the message. U2 have mail!

Sass said...

Gina

I don't like Clarence Mitchell either, but if I remember rightly they did have family members speaking for them and things went very wrong. They were so unused to having to think how the press could twist things and cut things and they said some pretty daft stuff - do you remember the quote about the party?

As the case is high-profile and so much is at stake, I can understand them wanting to get someone in who is used to dealing with the press. I just find Clarence Mitchell too smarmy.

Sass said...

Mark

You don't have to set up a blog - it's a possibility should you wish too!

That reminds me of a phone call I got when my bf got a dvd player. I've got a dvd player. Where's play???!!!

Mandz said...

Hi sass!

I think our Government know more than we think hence CM position. Thank goodness he is there fore them.

helenm said...

Fine thanks Sassy. You have mail. (love saying that!!!) I.m such a simple soul, easily pleased!!

Sass said...

Mandz

At last I catch you when there isn't an urgent cup of tea crisis!

I would hope someone knows more than we think, because it would really blow if they didn't!

Gina said...

Just had this emailed to me by a friend. It is a virus warning. Do not open anything marked "postcard" with an attachment Please read: Big Virus coming

http://www.snopes.com/computer/virus/postcard.asp

Hi All, I checked with Norton Anti-Virus, and they are gearing up for this virus!

I checked Snopes (URL above:), and it is for real!!

Sass said...

Thanks for the warning, Gina!

SwedishMum said...

Hi Mark,

nice to be welcomed and nice to see you too. However I'm gonna disappoint you a bit :-)
I actually thought I'd try to post on both blogs. I fully agree with what Gina wrote about that. We'll just have to see if it will be accepted.

Tulip,

yes we eat our salty fish, but to compare it to Vegemite ...
I'll have to agree with Mandz - YUK!

Gina said...

Swedish glad you are here. Just been posting on Vivs and Doppel was saying that this is not you, so I posted your post from this morning over there, hope you do not mind. Viv said she has sent you an email. Anyway from what I understand Doppel has been banned or something not sure what is going on. Maybe you better read the blog for yourself, he has totally confused me, he thinks you are Assassin. Maybe you should post in Swedish, none of us will understand you, but at least we will know it is you!!!!!!

SwedishMum said...

Thanks Gina,

been there, done that (not posted in Swedish though - but an excellent idea).
Thank you for posting my morning post btw.

Gina said...

Re the virus warning, Di on Vivs blog has just told me that this warning is a hoax, well maybe it is, who knows, but better to be safe than sorry in my view.

Have just burned a saucepan because I took too long posting this info on both sites so that is my good deed for the day and I bid you all a pleasant evening TTFN

assassin said...

I just read it too. Please don't talk Swedish, 'swedish mum' - I'd be more confused reading that than the paranoia and who Im supposedly cloning;-)

I do believe you have the real good old mark55 in here too. Cos as far as im aware, im not cloning him either lol.

Yes, she has kicked doppel. For once, credit to viv where due cos ive not been talking to him, but he hasnt stopped paranoid yapping yet.

Sass said...

Let me help you out here SwedishMum and Gina.

SwedishMum's blogger ID no here is:

03670331592873719018

and on Vile's (where you can't prentend to be someone you're not, because you have to register via e-mail) is

03670331592873719018

so you are in fact you!!!

That is how I found it was Arepa/Speak your Mind trying to muck up Vile's blog with all that sick stuff. Assassin was posting, but it was Arepa/Speak your mind who sent the foul stuff.

SwedishMum said...

I'm off for now,

Have a nice evening all!

SwedishMum said...

Thanks Sass!

assassin said...

May i just say THANKYOU sassy. I'm glad someone else had their eyes open too to what was really going on! :-)

Sass said...

It is so easy to check the blogger ID numbers - naturally someone can get themselves a couple of numbers and that is what some do, but it's a lot more work.

SwedishMa - see you.

Not thrilled that Doppel is homeless.

Sass said...

For information on the virus about which Gina posted take a look at:

http://www.snopes.com/computer
/virus/postcard.Asp

It IS a real virus.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Evening All,

I dont believe for one minute JT would have revoked her statement.

She was on National TV saying she would return to Portugal to clear up any consistencies if asked. She was never asked!

She offered to go back to Portugal to assist with the photo-fit that was published a couple of months ago, it was declined.

And most recently, after being reinterviewed for allegedly 10 hours, she was reported as saying some of the things being written about them was laughable if it wasn't so serious.

Nope, I'm sorry, I dont buy it what so ever!

helenm said...

Hi folks,

Quick in and out. Just to let you know I have not abandoned you all!!!!LOL out with friends tonight so will try to catch up mane. Have a good evening. Oh, I LURVE MARMITE. Spread on toast with light cheese spread and sliced tomatoes, yummy!!!!

Tinkerbell43 said...

Helen,

Urgh, perish the thought, what a concoction, lol.

Enjoy your evening, see you mane! x

Sass said...

There was an advert for Marmite -you either love it or you hate it! Definitely the latter! Do you remember the big blog of black that was supposed to be Marmite swallowing people up on the streets in the advert? They had to stop it because kids were afraid of Marmite attacks!

Sass said...

Have a good time Our 'Ell. You going to dance round your handbag? Don't forget the word "groovy" is no longer cool!

Sass said...

See a 17-year-old has now been charged with Rhys' murder.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Hey Sass,

Someone has actually been charged! That is superb news, do you have a link ?

Sass said...

Tinks - yup it's a real quality job!

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol
/homepage/news/justice/article1050528.ece

Gina said...

Evening all, As you know I was questioning why a Spanish reporter broke the story of the "leaked statements". Well if what I have read is true it is now beginning to make some sense.

It is alledged the leaks did not come from PJ statements, but from statements given to Metodo, hence the Spanish connection. That is why the PJ are up in arms with CM for accusing them and I believe (I could be wrong) the statements are not entirely the same as the PJ's.

Now I think we can agree that if Metodo is the scource, I am sure their security of such documents is not the same as one expects from a police force and could have been obtained by various means and for various reasons. So may I respectfully suggest, we all hold fire before we accuse the PJ on this issue, just incase it was not them. I think if it was Metodo, CM was a bit too hasty with his accusations.

Really tired now, so going to bed, Good night all

Rosiepops said...

I was just waiting for this to come out about Metodo3 being the source, well I am surprised it took that long.

The PJ leaked this and I do not care what they say, I do not trust them, they have leaked, leaked and leaked and now they start crying? tough, they leaked it alright and they did it at a time it would inflict most damage.

It is not enough that the PJ come out and say it wasn't them, what about all the other times?

The only reason they are whingeing and crying about it now is because they know and fully realise they went too far this time and questions are now being asked and British MPs and MEPs are now getting involved and the British government will be putting pressure on the Portuguese government.

Nothing short of a full public inquiry should now be held to investigate these leaks and where they actually come from and I would suggest they start with their translators!

Whoever has been leaking these stories in the PJ should be sacked immediately.

Tulip said...

Well, at least one other Marmite fan. And yes, Helen, that's the way to eat it!

Off now -- good night all.

Rosiepops said...

Don't forget there is also the matter of the PJ leaks before concerning the Portuguese journalist and the info she claimed she got from PJ source ie Witness names and addresses, home and mobile phone numbers and copies of witness transcripts.

What was done about this? nothing!

Well now the PJ must be investigated at the same time this inquiry must ask also why it is possible for a ex police officer to be writing books and making money out of missing little girls, one of which he is involved in a court case answering very serious charges!

All this must be investigated it stinks to high heaven.

Rosiepops said...

Tinks

Post 20.10

JT hasn't changed her statement this is more nonsense put out by the famous PJ sources. I note that the PJ are not rushing to discredit this leak about JT, even though they know fully well it is not true, wonder why that is? Couldn't be because it suits their Operation blacken character Assassination McCann, could it?

Rosiepops said...

Hi Mark

Welcome.long time no read, how are you? i saw your name up on viles a couple of times and tried to get your attention but Viv deleted the posts before they could read it.

What do you reckon on what will happen over the next few days then?

dianeh said...

Gina

I dont know whether you will see this but I would like to answer about why the PJ didnt take the easy option of adbuction.

First, abduction was never the easy option. It would only be the easy option if the PJ knew who did it. Stranger abductions cases are very very difficult to solve. Many are never solved.

Second, in my opinion, the police running the investigation did initially (perhaps still) believe the McCanns to be guilty of Madeleine's death etc etc. They then set about to prove it. By the time they realised that there was no evidence (and as Rosie said, if there were any evidence the McCanns would have been charged), they were too far along with the investigation and very difficult to go back and investigate the abduction angle. There were too many leaks and for those police it could be potentially damaging to their careers that they got it so wrong. Potentially damaging for the PJ as a whole. Embarassment and social standing/elitism in my opinion has also played a large part in the PJ's ability to retreat from their position and broaden the investigation.

Gina, it is important to understand that in Aust and Britain (I dont speak for any other countries), the gravest miscarriages of justice have occurred because the police thought the accused were guilty. They had no doubt and did whatever they could to convict them. It wasnt personal, and it wasnt the result of inbuilt corruption, as the police didnt receive any real personal benefits from it. This tends to be a feature of the miscarriage of justice, the unswerving belief by the police that the accused are guilty.

So the PJ may have found themselves in this position when starting with a firm belief in the McCann's guilt. Even without any corruption in the PJ (and we dont know but it is something that they should investigate in an inquiry, as the Cipriano case has raised many questions), if the PJ have a culture of finger pointing and laying of blame, it is unlikely that any of the officers on the investigation will put their hand up and admit to making a mistake. Instead, they will continue to try to 'find' the evidence they need, even if it doesnt exist.

Do not underestimate what men will do to maintain their position within a powerful workplace culture.

dianeh said...

To all of you marmite fans.

I eat VEGEMITE.

Im a happy little vegemite as happy as can be.
I love to eat my vegemite for breakfast, lunch and tea.

etc etc.

Famous add for vegemite from the sixties. My kids love it as well.

Marmite, yukky
Vegemite, yummy

dianeh said...

On vegemite

It is meant to be spread on buttered bread or toast, but spread very thinly.

If you pile it on thick, like peanut butter, it is very salty, very strong and I dont like it much either. My kids will eat it straight off a spoon.

I wonder if thats child abuse.

dianeh said...

Rosie/Gina

Just to add another twist to the latest leaks.

I have read that the Spanish journalist has said that Clarence was not the leak. If it was M3, would he be splitting hairs like that?

I doubt that M3 would leak a document at that given point in time, if at all. They would have been well aware of the timing and where the McCanns were. They work for the McCanns, not the other way around.

Also, lets be realistic, only the PJ have transcripts of the interviews. No one gave the McCanns a copy to take home. The only place that anything vaguely resembling the original transcripts could come from is the PJ.

dianeh said...

Rosie

I agree about JT. The only place I have ever heard that she has changed her story is on the various anti McCann blogs.

Since no denial, does this make this a genuine PJ leak??????

calcite51 said...

So according to Claws, arguidos have a copy of their statements. Find it hard to believe considering everything is SO CONFIDENTIAL in Portugal.

But alas, why is Mr. Mitchell requesting an enquiry into the leaks? No, it doesn't make much sense but so far I found very little about the PJ's have made sense.

Leigh, are you really this silly in life or are you just trying to outdo Claws? Don't know if you're Catholic or not but don't be so naive. I am Catholic - and convent educated Catholic at that.


And I do not mean offense to any devout Catholics reading this but
very few Catholics follow all the Churches' laws. There are so many of them. Here's a few, for a fact, I know have been broken: not attending church on a regular basis; no sex before marriage; divorces; remarriage; the list goes on and on... You must all be psychic because I read on your blog that Kate and Gerry didn't go to confession - was there not a priest that came down - they could have made a confession to him privately.

calcite51 said...

Don't know if anyone is on this blog now.

Rosie, I don't know why the PJ's don't agree to an enquiry about these leaks if they are NOT the ones doing the leaking (in my opinion, they are leaking more than the Titanic ever did).

dianeh said...

Calcite

I find it laughable that the PJ would give a copy of the transcript of the interview to the arguidos. How would that help if any requestioning is done? If that is the law, then it is a very silly law. It also means there is no way to keep the secrecy intact, and no way to find where leaks do come from.

To stupid for words.

So you cant see any evidence against you but you can take home copy of the transcript of your interview.

Really Clawpaw, you will have to do better than that. You will have everyone believing that Portugal is a backward third world country and that the PJ are nothing but hacks. This does more damage to the PJ than just about anything else I have heard and it comes from Claw.

dianeh said...

Calcite

It is obvious non catholics dont get the way of us catholics.

It is only the hard core catholics that follow all the rules. The rest of us only follow the ones we want to. After all, wont we be forgiven later on.

I know a few people who have were fairly easy about their faith but when something happened, such a death or cancer, then they have turned to the church with a passion. And the local priest will not reject them, he will welcome them with open arms.

If Kate finds solace in the church,than that is her perogative. Faith is a purely private thing, and we must all make our own peace with our God.

Better that than listen to the voices inside ones head.

dianeh said...

Calcite

Maybe PJ dont want an inquiry into the leaks. Possibilites are

1. It will show they did them all.
2. It will show that they have no control over their documents and that their own security protocols are lacking.
3. It will show that they made no attempt to stop any leaks.
4. It may also show that there was no substance to the leaks, other than to smear the McCanns good name. AFter all, a judge must know if the leaks contain any truth or not.

Any of these will make the PJ look foolish and depending on what is found, possible corrupt.

calcite51 said...

Diane - Many people when they face tragedy, do turn to God - I know I have done it and I certainly would not ever question someone who did.

I think I tend to agree with your about Portugal look like a third world country. Pathetic...

calcite51 said...

Rosie, where is Mum - have you heard from her? Is she okay?

calcite51 said...

I think I have to go buy a television now - three weeks ago, a new computer, now a television, next who knows?

Gina said...

Dinah/Calcite,

It is my understanding that arguidos are given copies of their statements. This is to say the statement they themselves gave and signed as being true. Ofcourse they are not given statements from other witnesses, which could be used as evidence against them. I personally did not read what Claudia said, but I think this is what she must have meant even if it did not sound that way.

Dinah when I was suggesting the PJ could have taken the easier option and gone along with the abduction theory, but that I did not mean it was easier to find an abductor, but it is certainly much easier to say you are looking for one even if you never find him/her. They surely know full well that they will never beable to charge the McCanns without evidence, so personally I cannot understand why they have taken this route if they have nothing. Someone suggested it was to protect the tourist industry, well I suppose that is a theory but I am not sure about that. Infact I am not sure about anything to be honest

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