Tuesday, 15 April 2008

Meredith or Madeleine: it's trial by media

The problems of finding justice
Magnus Linklater

By Saturday, we knew that the American student Amanda Knox had changed her account of Meredith Kercher's murder three times, that she was sitting in her prison cell writing version after version of what had happened on the night itself, that she had a reputation as a heavy drinker with an active sex life, that she had posed on her website with a machinegun.

By Sunday we were reading interviews given to the press by the arrested suspect Raffaele Sollecito, in which he gave his own story, complete with admissions that he smoked cannabis and had a large collection of knives.


By Monday, a report from the judge examining the case had been leaked, offering us a full rundown on the evidence uncovered by police, including a lurid description of the scene of the crime, written (or translated) in the language of the penny-dreadful: “With the door opened there was a chilling scene... the room was found in disorder with blood stains everywhere, on the ground and on the walls, and also under the duvet of the bed a foot could be seen.” So detailed was the judge's report that it even included the Vodafone number of the mobile phone found in the garden next to Meredith's house.



This is justice Italian-style, no holds barred, full disclosure, fact and speculation freely intermingled; the word “alleged” has been notable for its absence. This is the polar opposite of the much-criticised Portuguese system applied to the Madeleine McCann case, in which no details were officially issued and suspects, named by police, were legally forbidden to speak.
Neither case, however, has demonstrated the two prerequisites of a just legal process: an unbiased police inquiry and the presentation of untainted evidence in court. How any of the three suspects so far arrested in Perugia can expect a fair trial, should a case against them ever be brought, is almost impossible to imagine.


Furthermore, the clear-headed analysis of evidence has already been polluted. As each new discovery is publicised and every new theory widely aired, the public pressure for action grows, and the hand of the investigating authorities is forced. Although the judge is meant to be wholly independent, with the task of weighing the police evidence against the claims of defence counsel, even he cannot expect to remain immune to the overwrought atmosphere in which his inquiries are held. Trial by press conference is not the best means of ensuring that justice is done - but that is what we are witnessing.



In Portugal, the so-called code of secrecy has resulted in the deliberate manipulation of evidence. Sheltering behind the law, officials have briefed favoured journalists, allowing a barrage of damning allegations to be unleashed against Madeleine's parents. With little or no hard proof to sustain the charges, they have nevertheless turned a supposedly objective criminal investigation into an exercise in character assassination. The Portuguese authorities may argue that they are simply responding to accusations from the British media that they have botched the inquiry, but that is hardly justification for distorting the evidence.



There was a time when it might have been possible to claim that the British approach to criminal investigations avoided both these extremes. The laws of contempt kept a tight rein on premature disclosure of any evidence that could influence a future jury. They were best summed up by Lord Hope of Craighead, a Scottish judge (the rules have always been tighter north of the Border), who observed that it was “in the public interest that proceedings for the detection and punishment of crime should not be interrupted by the effect on the course of justice of publicity”. Once an arrest was made or charges brought, the tried and trusted (if often deeply resented) formula of “last night a man was being held in connection with the case” became the last word on the subject before a trial.



It is hard, however, to constrain the press in the hothouse world of international competition. These days newspapers exist in the age of the internet, when facts, sub-facts and downright inventions circulate freely and are instantly available online from news organisations in other countries whose freedom to publish is far wider than ours. Access to previous convictions, for instance, can be instantly gained through Google; references to royal figures whose privacy is protected by judge's orders in Britain can be picked up with ease on any number of foreign websites. And when readers are able to fill in the blanks for themselves through electronic means, the press can sometimes feel they are operating with one hand tied behind their back.
Recent cases, such as the allegations of rape made in 2003 against a number of footballers in a London hotel, when lurid details were published in advance of a trial that then had to abandoned; or the case of the “Suffolk strangler”, where compromising information about a potential suspect was widely aired after he had been arrested, suggest that the boundaries of what is permissible are being stretched. The police, too, seem more prone to allowing evidence to leak into the public arena. Set against that, however, is the very real threat to newspapers that if they print material that allows a defence QC to argue that his client's case has been undermined and the trial has to be called off, the newspaper can be landed with the bill.



We are all, of course, breathless for gossip and, in the case of murder, we are insatiable. So used have we become to the immediacy of information, and to instant access to the latest revelations, that we have come to expect it as our right. But in most murder cases there is likely not only to be a guilty party but an innocent suspect as well. The law is there to nail one and absolve the other. Everything else takes second place to that.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/magnus_linklater/article2865988.ece

146 comments:

Tulip said...

A very well-chosen and timely post Sass!

Sass said...

Thanks Tulip!

The media coverage of Madeleine's case has totally brought out the worst in some people. It has made people speculate on the most gruesome theories, has turned people into armchair detectives (enough proof of that on Vile's) and given some people the impression that they actually knew Madeleine and know the McCanns.

People feel they have the right to judge the McCanns based on leaks from the PJ - why should a competent police force have to rely on such methods to get a case solved???

Tulip said...

GIna asked me yesterday what I thought of this leak business and I said, quite honestly, that I didn't know.

I've had more time to think about it now. Quite apart from the very suspicious timing, and short of some unbelievably convoluted conspiracy that requires double-bluffs etc, I think the only response to the PJ's remarks is to say'If you didn't leak it to the press, who did? It's your responsibility to keep things confidential'.

Accusing Clarence is so silly.

As for the case in Perugia I also thought at the time that their 'tell all' tendency was as bad as the Portuguese so-called secrecy. All that drama and horror and now -- silence. How can those people get a fair trial either?

England has a lot wrong with it but I trust our police more than any other. ANY other.

Gina said...

Sass/Tulip good morning. I was not going to post anywhere today but it has become a habit while having a coffee.

I would like to give my honest opinion but I know it is not prudent to do so. However what I would like to say is:

1. Viv and most of her posters are convinced the McCanns are guilty, all on here think the PJ are at fault. However neither side is privy to the TRUE facts and without them both sides are only opinions based on alledged leaked reports, news articles etc. No basis to condemn either way and we have no proof that the leaks are in fact from actual police statements.

2. When this case is over something needs to be done to pull all EU police forces in line and use the same system. By that I mean in the UK the police investigate, decide if they have enough evidence and charge the accused. The courts then take over.
In Portugal the police have to submit the evidence to a judge to decide whether they should proceed with a case. IMO too time consuming. Also no police force is allowed to just march into another country to requestion suspects, and we all know how long it takes to get the permission. IMO this is a ridiculous situation and something needs to be done about it, and the best way forward should be decided by all the police forces concerned and not by politicans and paper shufflers.

Sorry to use your blog as a message board but SWEDISH MUM if you are looking in, I am not posting on Vivs blog because I cannot be bothered to get a throw away email address as I do not want to mess up my computer again. Hope to see you around sometime, take care

Sass said...

Hi again

When I first saw the Perugia case and the way it was being dealt with, I compared it with the way Madeleine's case was dealt with and it seemed so incredibly efficient.

In hindsight, though, there were things I didn't agree with at all. I don't think seeing the room where Meredith died was necessary. It wasn't going to help the case and I found it disrespectful to her and to her family to show people that.

Why were we shown pictures of distressed parents and sister at her funeral? Is there no privacy at all? That was ridiculous. If they hadn't cried the correct amount of tears at what some people deem the correct time would the other blog be discussing crazy theories about them?

As far as the suspects are concerned - it's always the same. Now that there has been so much in the media about them, people have already formed their opinions anyway. Like with the McCanns - people are always going to say, there is no smoke without fire.

Gina said...

Tulip I too have thought longer about these leak and have concluded that neither side would gain by them. The PJ know full well that if they want to convict it has to be done with evidence not public opinion, and Clarence should know by now that leaking something to discredit the PJ which at the same time is damning to the McCanns is counter productive. I am beginning to think that a journalist has perhaps spoken to someone like the waiter at PDL who said JT did not leave the table and guessed the rest. The worrying thing is though, that Clarence was quick to deny the statement that the group wanted a private jet, but he has not actually denied these claims, but just used it to condemn the PJ- No a shrewd move at this time in the proceedings IMO

assassin said...

The bee, [bianca] just got stung. Blog removed.

Sass said...

Gina

Hi Gina

I agree that noone really knows what has happened to Madeleine. As you say, we do not know everything and newspapers don't always print facts - whether Portuguese or British.

As far as the leaks to the press are concerned, even if it wasn't the PJ itself passing on information, surely after the first leak they should have done something to stop the same thing happening again. The transcripts of the interview, for example, were passed onto Spanish television very recently and these leaks have been going on for months - seemingly without anyone doing anything!

Sass said...

Re, Bianca's bleugh - she said she didn't know if it was going to be a long-lasting one.

Gina said...

Sass as you know the UK government have had there fair share of leaks which they could have done without, they have also managed to loose important records with peoples details on. Heavens knows how this happens and how you stop it. I am just not sure the scource of the leaks and to be honest the point of making them at this particular time in the proceedings. I am sure the PJ have not set out to make themselves look stupid, but someone is trying to do that for whatever reason. I am just hoping that this has not come from the UK end. Guess as with much about this case, we are unlikely to ever know the real truth.

I am off now, take care.

Tulip said...

Gina I agree with a lot that you say. Now now, saying you can't post your honest opinion here is bordering on poor me again!! Only joking!

We can all only guess anyway. Maybe Clarence didn't deny the report because it was true? Maybe he did deny the report about the private jet because it wasn't true.

I just wish it could all be sorted out now. I so feel for those closely involved.

As for leaks not benefiting anyone -- in a way I agree. But what about this PJ motive: try to get them to crack and confess via psychological pressure exerted via leaks? I'm sure this is what has happened on occasions before now.

Gina said...

Tulip OK I will go for it. My opinion is, and always has been is that the McCanns went about this the wrong way from the outset. They should have IMO stood their ground with the PJ at the time they were made arguidos, by that I mean in a nutshell, told them to put up or shut up and avoided all this continuous spin and nonsense. I guess they are not streetwise, like Mrs Keeling who did exactly that when her daughter was murdered. She had not faith in the Goa police and stood her ground without any help whatsoever. She is now going back to front them with why her daughter organs were removed without her permission.

I know the cases are not the same, but IMO if you know you are innocent you have nothing to fear with the world watching and lots of lawyers and support- IMO if the McCanns had stood their ground and challenged the PJ at the time they could have got the arguido status lifted much sooner and the focus back on the abduction. By not doing so we now have to question why, and we therefore get split opinion. However having said that, too late now, whatever is going to happen is going happen, all I am saying is they could have made it happen sooner, if you see what I mean.

Tulip said...

A very valid opinion Gina. I certainly think that things could have been handled better -- with hindsight. I just think that the McCanns, in shock, went along with what may or may not have been good advice on the way to get Madeleine back.They were not at the time to know they would be made arguidos. Once entangled in the whole press circus I guess they did not know how to get out of it without sacrificing their publicity drive to find their daughter.

In fact I don't think it would have been possible, and they decided that finding Madeleine was the most important, not what the press threw at them. I imagine they still feel that way, though what they have had to go through as a result is horrific.

IMHO!

Tulip said...

Oh, and also, the Goa mother knew her daughter was dead and that the evidence was strong that the police had been corrupt.

I think for the McCanns not knowing what happened must have been paralysing -- they at first thought the PJ were doing a good job or at least gave them the benefit of the doubt. Then suddenly wham! They are being accused.

I don't think they had 'nothing to fear'. In their position I would have thought it was a set up. In a strange country, having lost their daughter, being interrogated by police who had suddenly turned on them? I don't know how they managed to hang around at all.

I'm not saying they would have been beaten up with the whole world watching, but they must have feared being thrown into a cell, or their twins being taken away.

That's exactly what Amaral wanted to do, I believe.

Gina said...

Tulip maybe now you see a little where I am coming from. They went along with advice yes maybe, but they people giving the advice were wrong IMO and it is the same people who creatd this media circus that is now out of control and it is the same people who are winding the PJ and the Portuguese government up and so it goes on and on. They could have hired me for 1000 euros and got it all over with in a week and got on with finding their child. However I would have not allowed them to use Metodo 3, or open a marketing madeleine shop etc etc etc. which has also caused so much criticism and bad press. Having said that maybe they did not want it over so soon because they are actually hiding something, who knows, just keep an open mind is my advice

Going in the sun now, was in the house too long yesterday and I am an outdoor person :<)

Gina said...

Tulip I agree the Goa case is not the same, and I did say that- It was just the character of the women that I was using as a comparison. I guess I relate to her more than I do the McCanns as my style is "to hell with the consequencies, I want this sorted now as I am innocent and I want all the attention focused on finding my child".

We are all differnt I know, I know I would have been devastated if something like this had happened to me but somehow I know because of my character I would have pulled myself together and fought for what I wanted.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Morning,

Just popping in on troll patrol.

Tulip I agree wholeheartedly with your 11:53 post.

It must have been terrifying to find themselves in that situation, caught up in a system you dont know or trust.

Catch you later, back to work I go!

Tulip said...

Hindsight is always a fine thing!

But I don't agree that the McCanns aren't fighting back. They are -- and are not being such a walk-over as the PJ thought they would be.

Also it's much easier to make a stand and wave your fists effectively if you aren't a suspect. The secrecy laws in Portugal deprived them of all their rights to make that valiant fuss, while the PJ arrogated to themselves the privilege of saying whatever they liked and whenever they liked -- with impunity.

The MCCanns were told that if they spoke out they would be committing a criminal offence. The Goa mum was never at risk of an arrest. Everyone was behind her, even those who disapproved of her New Age lifestyle.

Gina said...

Tulip I agree hindsight is a wonderful thing and the Goa case is not the same, but as a point of interest Mrs Keeling was threatened with arrest for disturbing the peace of something they drummed up, I cannot remember what it was now.

I know the McCanns were told if they spoke they were committing an offence so they obeyed the law, I think if this had been Mrs Keeling or myself we would have told them what they could do with their law as we would have been so focused on finding our child. However, time to call it a day before we fall out again TTFN

Tulip said...

No risk of falling out as far as I'm concerned Gina -- I respect your opinion. Don't be paranoid!

The threats in Goa were made only briefly, until they were ridiculed, and were obviously of a different order from those made against the McCanns in Portugal. The Goa mother wasn't being accused of killing her daughter.

I agree she was very brave. I think her life had taught her to be. But not everyone has that street-fighter ability and I think the McCanns were in a far more vulnerable position, being arguidos AND still deserately wondering where their little daughter was.

Gina said...

ps Tulip although I relate more to Mrs Keeling it is not because I live a new age live style and live in a caravan, I bet the women hasn't even got one bathroom!!!! :>)

Gina said...

Tulip the only thing that makes me paranoid is people keep telling me I am paranoid. I am a cool cat man and going to chill in the sun:>)

Isn't that a daft thing that people say, they are going to chill.

Tulip said...

OK, Gina, over-sensitive, better??

Does two bathrooms plus guest loo count as three bathrooms?

If so I'm competing.

Enjoy the sun. Chilling out in the sun today in England would literally be true, I'm afraid.

Gina said...

Tulip let's get this bathroom thing sorted. When my daughter in law who is american is here I have three bathroom, because the yanks have the crazy notion of calling anything with a loo in it a bathroom. To those of us who tell it the way it is I have 2 bathrooms and a loo which when I am alone is more than I need, but when guests decend on me on block I need another 4 bathrooms as they seem to be in them for ages.
__________________________________

That's the line under the bathroom situation. You can go chill now, and I will go and bake. Don't be jealous, I will end up with more wrinkles than you at lot sooner BYE

Tulip said...

Right Gina, it's a dead heat with the bathrooms.

And I admit I'm jealous about the sun. So go and get wrinkles then --tanned wrinkles are OK.

calcite51 said...

Gina, just a thought - if the PJ's are not leaking little tidbits, then they (PJ's) should demand an enquiry and they should do it immediately.

My personal opinion is that the PJ's were leaking information at the beginning to try to break down the McCanns and get a confession. Now, I think they're just trying to destroy the McCanns.

As Tulip pointed out, the GOA mother knew her daughter was dead; the McCanns don't know and wanted her back. So, I can see why the parents would have handled these situations differently.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/15/nmaddy115.xml

Tulip said...

Hello Calcite -- wondered if someone would finally pop in or whether it would continue to be a duet between Gina and me!

calcite51 said...

Good morning,Tulip. I also read that Bianca's blog was closed down.

Yesterday, Diane mentioned that a comment she had written about Kate's diary was the topic on Bianca's blog. Diane responded (must have been quite a response) if Bianca removed her blog completely.

Tulip said...

Or maybe Bianca found running a blog too stressful.

Wonder if Diane will let us see what she wrote? I think it was something to do with a realistic take on parenthood that Bianca found intolerable, but I could be wrong.

calcite51 said...

Well,reluctantly, I have to agree with you about the British police - they do seem to be very competent and highly professional.

I was also advised by colleagues who have travelled internationally that if I ever have any problems (passport, legal, etc.) when I am out of the country - I should go to the British embassy as opposed to the Canadian embassy.

Even Canadian investigators, I have at times, questioned their competency. I was very angered with the Air India investigation (no one has ever been charged with blowing up the plane and murdering over one hundred people). We have had three costly enquiries in this case and yet no answer.

One reason, I believe that the PJ's are leaking information is because Amaral(spelling????) was so critical of the police of Leicestershire. He was quickly removed from the investigation but I wonder how many of his colleagues were angered by his removal and if they didn't leak info to get back at the McCanns and indirectly the police force.

calcite51 said...

Tulip, I'm pretty sure, Diane's response was very reasonable. Diane is always reasonable in her responses (ok she calls a few of them morons but she does do it nicely).

Tulip said...

Yes, Calcite, after many years in a non-European country I have sensed a feeling of security in England that only those who have spent time away seem to feel. Despite all the things that are wrong I feel that decent standards and foundations are still there and that people will defend them.

Diane has every right to call certain people morons if it's the truth!!

Where IS everyone today? Was it something I said? Do I need a bath?

Tulip said...

How to tell someone he/she is a moron nicely.

'Look, don't take this personally, and I do genuinely accept that others might in certain circumstances reach a different conclusion, but I do have the tiniest suspicion -- for which I deeply apologise in advance -- that you are or may be, well ... a moron.'

calcite51 said...

No, I'm sure it's nothing you said and no you don't need a bath -the blog is normally slow at the time of day. Melbel is on holiday - I don't know where Mum21 is.

Bite your tongue, Tulip otherwise we may be visited by Doppel and Assasin bringing their fight here.

I have to depart for work - so, alas I too am leaving. You can always invent another personna and have a discussion with yourself (it has been done elsewhere)!! Lol.

Tulip said...

I see your point Mum and Calcite.

Gina said...

Calcite I think you have gone now but just to say that I think if these leaks have not come from the PJ they are probably carrying out their own investigation as we speak ( or as we cyber?) Your guess is as good as mine on that

Sass said...

Hiya Tulip and Calcite (if you're still around), Gina and Lurking Mum

You don't stink Tulip - well not as far as Austria anyway!

As Mum21 said, it is always quiet around this time - people at work.

Am off for a few minutes because I want to try out some new stuff for the blog.

Tulip said...

Ah, thanks Sass. I was wondering whether I shouldn't become a freesia instead!

Sass said...

Tulip

You're fine from where I'm standing (which is probably about a thousand miles away!).

I see the PJ said they were near a breakthrough again! Y A W N! How many times have we heard that one?

Sass said...

Cyber fisticuffs elsewhere please!

Sass said...

Read your comments about us earlier Doppel.Not impressive.

Sass said...

We're not turning this blog into one huge fight.

I'm deleting any argumentative texts, plus the ones that have already been made.

Sass said...

I'm off.

Mandz said...

Hi All,
Good article Sass!

Tulip,

I think the McCann’s did what they thought was best at that time in trying to find their daughter. They were absolutely right in calling on the world media you only have to look at the attention this “one” little girl received. They were advised by experts from America to keep her in the media – high profile which appears to have worked so I take my hat off to them. I’m sure they must have been aware that the media is dangerous however they needed in my opinion to take the chance and naturally Maddie came first.

As for the leaks true or not? In my opinion I think this leak is perhaps half true.. Maybe not word for word from the original statement however taken from the original statement and bent a little to get at the McCann’s hence the timing to Brussels. What better way to get at them and sway public opinion (which they have lost) with “little girl left alone crying” what mother would do this etc etc. They will also be forced soon to release them soon from this pathetic status.
In my opinion it’s embarrassing times ahead for them and they are trying to convince the public by this latest leak however we are not that daft…..

Tinkerbell43 said...

Hey Mandz,

If the PJ thought it would sway public opinion away from The McCanns, they have shot themselves in the foot - big time.

Most people I know are up in arms over it, even those that have not been following the case. My boss even said to me, I know you've been following this story from day one, this dont look too good on the PJ does it ? and for once I agreed with him, lol.

Mandz said...

Hiya Tinks!
IMO their attempt to sway public opinion has backed fired. They have been doing this since the beginning however this latest attempt is the icing on the cake and they have sunk to a new level…desperado…

Tinkerbell43 said...

Mandz,

What saddens me, is Madeleine never stood a chance. IMO, every stream of evidence was missed or fatally compromised.

They should have held their hands up months ago, admitted to their mistakes and enlisted the help of a professional police force.

But no, they gag the suspects and then subject them to an incredible smear campaign to cover for their own mishandling of the case.

UNFORGIVABLE.

archer said...

Hi Tinks and Mandz and anyone else that I missed.

Clarence obviously believes in the comment he made about the 'leaks' else he would not have been so vehement about it. This also tells us that nothing of any significance changed in the re-interviewing of the friends. If there had been he would not have been so focused in this one point.

Can't wait to hear from the pj what their 'significant' breakthrough is???

Tinkerbell43 said...

Hi Archer,

I have to admit, I've never seen Clarence so animated, I think he was absolutely livid over these latest leaks.

He said he would not retract any of his words and again he emphasised as he aways does, this is just detracting attention away from Madeleine. That should be their focus not him and I make him absolutely right!

archer said...

Tinks

Hope you have had a good day.

Oh dear, oh dear..I have just been for walk on the wild side....

1758hrs post - if you have the stomach! sad sad saddo :¬((

Actually - don't. I will try hard not to go there again. PROMISE

Tinkerbell43 said...

Hey Archer,

My days not been too bad, could have done without the stirrer here today though.

Talking of stirrer yes I see the 17:58 post. Not alot to say really the man imo is obsessed with our blog.

Thinks he knows it all but in reality knows nothing, so he couldnt have found a better home.

I just wish he'd leave us alone instead of using our blog to get at Assassin.

Anyway, how has your day been ?

Tinkerbell43 said...

Doppelganger GO away!!!

archer said...

Tinks

Apologies for the child coming over.

Obviously didn't need much encouragement though.

Had a good day myself. Went to see my mother and two sisters - a mad get together. :¬))

Back to work tomorrow though.

assassin said...

please delete if me dropping a post here is likely to cause you problems.

However, im about to warn my users too. Not going to say the names or the place to avoid trouble, but there is a post with a link in there at 19.10.

Avoid the link. I cannot understand why anyone has posted it. It needs reporting, not flaunting. Well its what i will be doing anyway -reporting it!

Anyway, if you want this out, no problem, one of the others can repost a warning once this is out if you want to:-)

Just dont follow it...

Rosiepops said...

Doppel

I have no idea what the hell you are on about, I do not know why you are here and neither does anyone else, you are as thick as a brick s**t house, you are NOT welcome on here now go away.

I do not know why you are here I have hardly been around myself lately.
For your information my time this past week has been spent at the hospital or having my grandchildren because my daughter has pre-eclampsia, so you are your pathetic accusations could not have been furthest from my mind you pillock, now go away before I really do swear at you.
I am worried sick and I do not need your stupid accusations you bloody simpleton, my life does NOT evolve around this blog. GO AWAY!

Archer,

looks like I am never going to know the answer to that question.

Rosiepops knows why I am still here after all this time, although she will deny it of course.

Glad to see you are all still reading Viv's blog - so many posts to plough through though.

By Doppel

Tinkerbell43 said...

Doppelganger,

Stop trying to play this blog off against Assassin to suit your own agenda.

We can see exactly what you are trying to do.

Archer, no worries :0)

Thanks for not taking the bait.

JANEGT said...

DP[[E;

YOU ARE AN ARROGANT, FAILURE OF A MAN AN A LIAR. THAT WAS NOT, AS YOU FULLY WELL KNOW, WHAT HAPPENED AT ALL. You came on here today threatening and menacing, then copying and pasting with your vile lies to Vile's site, despite being told by her to GO AWAY.

now

post off you tosser, loser and w&nker.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Rosie,

I didnt expect to see you, but please do not let this excuse for a man get to you.

Hope you are ok (())

JANEGT said...

doppeltosseridiottohell


assassin does things in her name only certainly not in mine nor any one on this coherent, honest blog. now POST off. You are loathed and not wated here, not wanted on Vile's and not wanted anywhere. where are your kids by the way? ou have been on here all day, neglect comes to mine you tosser.

archer said...

I was looking through some song books earlier today and this particular song caught my eye. I don't know why, but it made me think of the McCann Family.

I know its the Liverpool Football Anthem... but I just wanted to put it here for the words and the sentiments.

When you walk through a storm
Hold your head up high
And don't be afraid of the dark
At the end of the storm
Is a golden sky
And the sweet silver song of a lark

Walk on through the wind
Walk on through the rain
Tho' your dreams be tossed and blown
Walk on, walk on
With hope in your heart
And you'll never walk alone
You'll never walk alone
-----------------

Let us now hope for a speedy conclusion to much of this pain and suffering for Kate, Gerry and their family.

JANEGT said...

doppel

obviously not. Our children are NOT AT SCHOOL IT IS THEIR SPRING BREAK. so what is 'obvious'; about that? you think everyone hinges around you and your limp life.

got news for you and your many id's mate, WE DON'T GIVE A TOSS. You now have no blogs to go to you have been told, not asked, told to leave them all, so

P O S T O F F

JANEGT said...

doppel

obviously not. Our children are NOT AT SCHOOL IT IS THEIR SPRING BREAK. so what is 'obvious'; about that? you think everyone hinges around you and your limp life.

got news for you and your many id's mate, WE DON'T GIVE A TOSS. You now have no blogs to go to you have been told, not asked, told to leave them all, so

P O S T O F F

JANEGT said...

NOTHING

IS THE MATTER WITH 'US PEOPLE' IDIOT DOPPELBUGGERITTOHELL

IT IS Y O U who is the huge, chip on shoulder, hasty vile problem here. now find your own blog as none want you any more. You have been chucked off the lot. so find a home. perhaps one where you can look after your ikids WHO ARE NOT IN SCHOOL NOW MATE.

Mandz said...

Hi Tinks & Archer!

Tink absolutely she never stood a chance and they screwed up at every opportunity and WHY? How can they live with the fact that they allowed child snatchers to get away? How can they sleep at night and do they have children and would they find this acceptable if it was one of “their” children or neice or nephew that was taken? I bloody bet they would not. That wee soul breaks my heart.

Archer!
I agree Clarence would not have spoken the way he did without knowing for sure if was true or at least as I said previously perhaps a half truth twisted by them to get at the McCann’s? Either way they are pathetic..

Tinkerbell43 said...

Jane,

Please do not fall for Doppels bait.

We have all had problems with Assassin in the past, some have made their peace some haven't.

I too was unfairly attacked on the DE by Assassin.

Lets let sleeping dogs lie and move on, we have a nice blog, dont let Doppel wind you up and use you for his own personal agenda against Assassin.

Email me if you want :0)

Mandz said...

Archer,

Let us now hope for a speedy conclusion to much of this pain and suffering for Kate, Gerry and their family.

*******************
Absolutely!
That had me in tears....along with thinking of the let down..Why did she receive second best why????

Tinkerbell43 said...

Jane,

lol, I see you didnt fall for the bait! :0)

archer said...

Hi Mandz

The pj responsibility for secrecy would cover all of the staff involved. As Gina said earlier including the admin too..

I once had a job where I had to sign an official declaration binding me to absolute secrecy, this included anything I saw, heard or read! I don't recall what the penalty for breaking that bond was though but I believe I would have been open to prosecution.

JANEGT said...

I AM NOT IN SCOTLAND DOPPEL AND I DON'T GIVE A TOSS WHERE YOU ARE. IT IS UNDERGROUND AND VERY HOT.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Doppel we know what you are trying to do, it isnt going to work.

Assassin is on no-ones side and well you know it. She just got the better of you like Mark55 always did and you dont like it.

Go back to Vile, or will Vile not let you mention Assassin on there!

Mandz said...

Archer,

They appear above and beyond the law....More like secrecy joke...

archer said...

Mandz

Well, they have shown us that they can get fired up over things, just have to get them motivated in the right way. Looks like they are now getting concerned at the picture that has been painted of them here.

Shame on them.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Mandz,

They certainly are a law unto themselves thats for sure! However, they can wriggle all they like over these leaks, but the buck stops with them, end of!

I'm sorry to say, all the while this case remains in their hands, we will never find out what happened to that dear little child.

She deserved so much more than this.

Sass said...

Hi

Just got in from my evening class. Has Doppel still not got the "go away" message???

Tinkerbell43 said...

Hi Sass,

lol, put it this way, its taking a little time to sink in :0)


I'm quite proud of myself, I switched Moderator off without cocking anything up!

Mandz said...

Yes Archer they are very concerned now what we think well bog off ya buffoons..You let down our girl – unforgivable.


Right off for a cuppa girls are ya coming….

Rosiepops said...

Hi Tinks

Thanks for that, the man is insane, he thinks because he has nothing better to do that flit from blog to blog stirring, others don't too! All that trouble of Viv's blog the other day was caused by him. Goes on about us talking about him but we don't, he only gets talked about if he sticks his Pinocchio nose in here, when he had disappeared for a while no one ANY blog even mentioned the pillock, yet he has this notion that we all talk about him, the paranoid "what jane called hom".

Don't worry, I intend to ignore him and I urge everyone else on here to do the same, you are quite right Tinks.

Thanks I am not so bad but worried as you can imagine.

Hope you haven't had too much of a bad day today. x

Mandz said...

Tinks,

Let's hope Met3 are onto something or why else did the McCann's renew their contract?

The PJ in my opinion have done nothing but distract this case away from Maddie at every opportunity and again why??

Going now to get a cuppa..

Sass said...

Nice going Tinks!

Thought it might take some time. Some of the unpublished posts he sent were just ridiculous - apparently he is the hero of our blog.

Mandz - send a cuppa over here will ya - too lazy to do it myself!

Sass said...

Rosie and Tinks

Nice surprise for you - check your e-mail!

Tinkerbell43 said...

Archer,

I have just noticed the Liverpool Anthem you posted, now I'm a wreck!

Let us hope they can all walk together again one day.

archer said...

Tinks

Sorry.....it hit me to when I read it this morning. x

Rosiepops said...

I see Clarence Mitchell gave a really good answer to the idiotic PJ today!

He said;

"I am not retracting a word. The criticism of me doesn't explain how confidential material came to be made public with curious timing"

The PJ have rowed themselves up the creek and thrown away the paddle and it serves them right! In my opinion they are liars and they hiding something sinister and could be concealing more than just corruption!

They do not like it when the tables are turned on them do they? all these months they have been treating the McCann's in the most abhorrent fashion, allowing lies and innuendo to be leaked out about them, without bothering to correct it, in fact the Portuguese press has said that the PJ are their source! All the most dreadful bizarre lies and they gag the McCann's with a secrecy order.
However, as soon as something comes out they do not like they start crying and moaning and whingeing and they make a public statement and start behaving like victims! I notice that they broke their secrecy laws to make this statement too!

The pathetic incompetent plonkers!

Tulip said...

It doesn't seem as if it's safe to come out yet, but well said Rosie. Pathetic Incompetent Plonkers -- PIPs for short.

Hope you are coping with all the worry in your own life right now. I hope and trust all will be well.

Sass said...

Tulip

It's safe, don't worry!

archer said...

Rosie

Did you see on the news tonight that the Pope apologised for the paedophila within the priesthood and the Catholic Church!

I have a feeling I haven't quite expressed that right - but I think you get my drift!

Well, if he is big enough to say 'sorry' perhaps the pj might too!!... and get on with what they should be doing. Looking for Madeleine and not trying to buff up their image in the world's press.

archer said...

Jane

Jane, where have you gone?

Come back out and say Hello :¬))

Tulip said...

Seems as if they may now have copped the murderer(s) of Rhys Jones. Let's hope they are able to hang on to them this time.

That's another little face that always breaks my heart -- the epitome of innocence.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Hi Everyone,

Sorry to be a lightweight, but I'm off for the night.

Bye

Sass said...

See ya Tinks
xxx

archer said...

Night Tinks sleep well


Hi Tulip

Sass said...

Tulip

Would be great, but how old are these murderers? Are we looking at 3 weeks at Juvenile prison because of their ages? Or slapped wrists and counselling?

mark said...

The McCanns have either been the victims of a cataclysmic historic injustice, almost unprecedented, or they have been complicit in a scheme so duplicitous, so evil, so foul that Shakespeare himself could not have written it.

This is a post by wizard on the vile blog from a quote by George Galloway .
It has been strongly supported by Leigh . Neither of them seem to understand it .
Shakespeare awas unique and therefore the McCanns have been subject to a potential gross miscarriage of justice . Not unique .

Sass said...

Hiya Mark!

Are you the same Mark55 as on the DX? There were 2 Marks on Vile's - Mark and Mark55 and their blogger IDs were different!

archer said...

Sass

It's two youths 16yrs, 17yrs and two men 24yrs and 25yrs. But 12 people arrested altogether.

Tulip said...

Hi Archer

Sass, I don't know, but I would guess from the ages given that some of those arrested are teenagers and the others older relatives who have covered up for them.

As for the slap on the wrist, I fear you may be right.

Tulip said...

Sorry -- re Rhys. Of course some of them are teenagers.I meant to say, I would guess the actual killers were the teenagers and the older ones parents or whatever.

Tulip said...

According to his profile and the link there, Mark is Mark55.

mark said...

SASS ,
Mark 55 from the Dx
scourge of Dad and Docmac .
have just been watching mainly recently waiting for something to happen .
tell me , is this denial of the leak an official denial by the Pj or just a statement from the policeman who previously said that the pj had better things to do than to look for Maddie .

Sass said...

Mark

Good to see you - am on phone. Will write back in a few minutes.

archer said...

Hi Mark

What do you anticipate happening with this now?

mark said...

archer
I'm amazed that the pj have been able to string it out this long . I think their visit to the uk which it appears has served no purpose at all does give them a reason to ask for a further secrecy extention which will probably be granted .
Having said that the pj have officialy said very little . To my knowledge they have never referred to the McCanns as prime suspects so when the arguido status is lifted they will say they have nothing to aplogise for .

archer said...

Mark

The pj stated that the re -interviewing had resulted in a ....'Significant breakthrough in the investigation '. How would you interpret that?

mark said...

Archer
where was that reported ?

archer said...

Mark

You would have to give me time to backtrack on everything that I have read to give you an exact link on that, but I think I could do. If not today then will try for tomorrow. It was said as they were giving Clarence a flea in his ear.

I will scamper off and have a look. :¬)

jak said...

Hi All, Mark, thanks for that quote, as much as I dislike George Galloway his quote is obviously in favour of the McCanns. If you have read Shakespeare you will know the scenarios and murderous behaviours of characters are way beyond the accusations of the McCanns.Just yet more ill-considered hot air from Mr Galloway.

If the "others" see this as some kind of comradeship from him, good, It only highlights their ignorance.

As for the denial of the "leak", absurd, I watched a video from Sky news, where the journo stated this came from the PJ.(I now seem to be taking a position like 2345 and her Jane Hill vid [shuddering at the thought]LOL. If it didn't, where would this sworn statement come from?Clarence?

There is no possible reason for him to do this when the McCanns where trying to highlight an incredibly important proposal, which could save many children in the future. Imo just one last attempt at disparaging the McCanns before the case is shelved. Leaving enough doubt in the minds of some that they are guilty. Shameful.

Tulip said...

It appears that the person making the statement was the Police Union Chief of the PJ --I'd guess not someone of great significance and representative of the PJ 'on the ground' as opposed to the bigwigs. According to the translated statement the phrase used was 'significant moves' not breakthrough.

I suppose flying to the UK and back was movement of sorts.

I love 'lying with all the teeth he has in his head'.

I can't stand Galloway but of course the quote DOES epitomise the situation with the McCanns -- in their favour. Not sure what he intended actually!

Glad to see you Mark.

archer said...

Mark

Apologies - the words were 'significant stage'


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=559675&in_page_id=1770

Tulip said...

Take your pick, Mark, Not a breakthrough anyway ...

Sass said...

Jak - hi still on phone! Will be around in a few minutes. Typing with left hand only!

archer said...

Thanks Tulip :¬)

mark said...

archer
i would be astonished if that was an actual quote from the pj , more likely from an unnamed source close to the investigation (ie rubbish)
Gordon Brown has spent most of his life trying to become PM .Unless he has decided to exchange Downing St for 10 yrs in prison (for perverting the course of justice protecting two child killers ) then the McCanns are inocent .

jak said...

Hey Sass, take your time, just going through posts.

Hi again all, nice to see you all again!

jak said...

Tulip, I see we have the same opinion of Galloway, horrible little man, in my opinion of course.

Tulip said...

Jak, I don't think we have to say IMO when saying someone is a horrible little man when it's Galloway! Not slander, just the OBVIOUS truth as expressed by a multitude of journalists and commentators.

IMHO ...

Tulip said...

Mark, this Police Federation/Union chief who made the statement is named by the Mail as Carlos Anjos. We've heard of and from him before.

Sass said...

Archer

We have heard so many times about these "significant breakthroughs" that they are losing all meaning!

Sass said...

Hiya Mark

Nice to see you again. Back now to typing with two hands and 100% concentration!

jak said...

Lol, I know, he really gets on my goat( old Glasgow term) but his quote was obviously in support. He cannot see an opportunity to go by without his long winded pseudo-intellectual perils of wisdom being heard.

archer said...

Sass

I just hope that Mark isn't right and that the pj extend the secrecy rules on this.

Its high time that the McCanns were allowed to speak out. (Not that I want them to call the pj's bluff, but it could prove interesting)

jak said...

Sorry, that was to Tulip. forgot to say.

archer said...

Jak

I don't think he showed much of his wisdom on B.B. ( Not that I watched it, but some of it was shown on the news..ugh)

Sass said...

The PJ is going to look like a right bunch of morons IMO ((wave to Clawdia)) if after all these extensions and interviews and significant whatevers the sum total of all this is "we dunno".

jak said...

Archer, saw those also, made himself look like even more of a plonker but my dislike comes from his time as a Glasgow MP and after, so won't say any more.LOL.

Sass said...

Mark

I agree. Why would the prime minister of Britain exchange his position for a prison sentence just to protect the McCanns? All the people (especially high-profile) who support them have so much to lose that they wouldn't support them if they weren't certain of their innocence.

Tulip said...

I thought you'd like Marga's question on the Vile site, namely now that the site was for members only 'could common people' also read it?

She is Nanda btw.

archer said...

Jak

I think I know where you are going with that!..:¬((

I am off now, early start in the morning, so I wish you all a good night. Good night!

Sass said...

Night Archer!

See you tomorrow!

Sass said...

Tulip

That's a typical Marga/Nanda/God-knows-who-else comment!

jak said...

This latest leak IMO, has been the most disgusting, when a positive step was being made to protect children throughout Europe, by overshadowing this media opportunity the PJ have shot themselves in the foot spectacularly.

Everyone I have spoken to is appalled that this news worthy story has been hijacked in such a blatant manner.

Off for tonight, hope you are all well and was really pleased to read Diane's child is doing well, best wishes to her.

Goodnight all, take care.x

Sass said...

See you Jak! Come again soon!

Tulip said...

Night Archer and Jak.

Mark do stay with this blog, it's good to hear your views. Alroy made a brief visit. Hope he returns too.

Sass said...

Mark - can only second what Tulip said. Not usually as quiet as this, people away or on night shift at the moment.

dianeh said...

Hi Guys

It wasnt me that got rid of Bianca's blog. And I answered very politely and just explained that I would appreciate her not taking my posts from this blog. It was taken out of contect because we had been talking about the diary and the sort of thing Kate would write in it and how useful/useless it would be in court. So to take my post without the rest is just plain silly and then to suggest it has a dark undertone.

Really, I did say that little boy was so naughty that I thought about swapping him for a cat. Now, if one cant write and be lighthearted (forget the more serious side of parenting and depression), then we all need to give up now.

And to be honest I pointed out to Bianca and that Ultraviolet that since they both believe in smacking, that they have the same attitude as myself. So they should watch themselves, as this will make them as bad a parent as my, in the opinion of the posters on Vile's blog.

That was it.

So I was very polite (really, no insults, nothing) so if the blog is gone, nothing to do with me. Plenty of others around who like to attack blogs. And Bianca hasnt endeared herself to those, and we all know who they are.

dianeh said...

Jak

Thanks for you best wishes.

Nice to see you posting here.

dianeh said...

Mark

Also nice to hear from you.

In my opinion, the latest leaks have without doubt pointed the finger at the PJ, as being the source of the leaks. Even if individual rogue officers (or admin but I doubt it, as if their file protection system is up to scratch, an admin would show up very easily as having made unauthorised accesses) had done these leaks without approval from higher up (as if), then the PJ should have been looking for these officers over the last eight months.

I agree that Clarence didnt leak this info for one very important reason. He would not have had access to the official transcripts. The McCanns were not given copies to take home. The PJ spokesman (whether official or not) was a fool to accuse Clarence. Only the PJ and their civilian staff had access to the files, and the civilian staff should NOT have had access either.

Another thing that an inquiry needs to be called for.

dianeh said...

Hi

Bianca's blog is still there. Just checked it and see that I need to get some help for my dark thoughts about my children.

Bianca takes my lighthearted comments (such as trade for a cat, like to kill them) as being serious. Get a life Bianca and learn the subtleties and nuances of writing. I was trying to put a lighthearted spin on a very serious topic. Only a fool would take those comments seriously, as an indication that I harbour thoughts of harming my children.

She and all of her mates (those idiots Viv and Rate have posted on her site) need to stop thinking in terms of black and white. And here is a thought, try adding a bit of reality to their posts.

All parents have doubts and question themselves, over many things. But not allowing people to express their doubts (and Kate's diary may be an example of this) then we are placing extreme restrictions on these parents and all that will result is that those that need help will not be able to ask for it.

And the day that I cannot use my regular colloquialisms on a blog, is the day that I give up blogging.

Tell me, how many of you have thought I was seriously going to kill my little boy because he went mad after he had a haircut. And does the phrase "almost drove me to drink" also imply that i am an alcoholic.

In fact, Bianca, you idiot, it is exactly the opposite. People thinking of murdering their children do not give advance warning. Alcoholics do not joke that they are alcoholics, etc etc.

How can people be so silly?

Enough of this. I will not post on her bog (not an error), as she is taking posts out of context and I have no desire to participate in any blog that does that.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Hi Dianeh & Mark

Mark really good to see you. Come back tomorrow, when Rosie should be on line too, I know she'll be pleased to "see" you.

DianeH,

You cannot reason with people that think there is some sinister motive in Kate saying "we put the children to sleep". We say, just putting the children down, it doesn't mean we're taking them to the vet!

Best to rise above it, Oops you already have :0)

Nite to everyone,
Take care x

Tulip said...

Hello Diane. And good night Tinks.

Diane, Bianca is unbalanced. She pulled the same stunt with me. She's so hysterical that she misread a very reasonable remark I made along the lines of it being better not to tempt Providence, and decided that I was a witch, that I was threatening her children and that she would 'see me in her dreams'.

Quite, quite bonkers.

dianeh said...

Tinkiebell

Good night.

You know I put my kids to sleep as well. And manage it without drugs.

I am sick of people adding their own interpretations to simple little sayings that are common usage to people in their own environment. They are continually taken out of context. There are way too many posters on these blogs who see sinister overtones in posts that they are unable to see the finer nuances of. A big problem for posters whose first language is not English but then Calcite does fine. But this isnt Bianca or Vile, or Rat's problem. English is the first language of these three, so it must be a case of intellectual dullardism. (he he)

Tulip said...

Just noticed how late it is.

Think you're the only one left here, Diane. Have a good day. I hope your daughter is much better in every way.

Bye for now

dianeh said...

Tulip

In Bianca's case, she was trying to start conversations on her blog, so thought she would use my post. But no one else was interested. Not that she has many posters at all.

Silly, silly woman. If she had of discussed my post in context (in the thread it came up in), or even if used to talk about parents having doubts and where do they go for help, all of this would be legit. But implying that I need help, she went on about it again today, is just plain stupid. And she should know regular aussie sayings when she sees them. What an idiot.

dianeh said...

Goog night Tulip

Sleep well.

calcite51 said...

Hi, Diane. Hope you are well tonight - see we were visited by Dope. It's Tulip's fault really - she was complaining how quiet it was this morning. I told her to bite her tongue otherwise Dopewhateverhis name is and Assasin would bring their fight to this blog.

Guess who the next commentor was? Dope..... This is the second time it has happened to me where I've written something (the first was with Vile). Can't believe it.

dianeh said...

Hi Calcite

Hope you are well.

Dope is just that, a great big dope. He thinks he is so smart and clever but he just makes himself out to be a fool. And full of himself too. But cant hold that against him, that is a trait of all those fools that post on Viv's blog.

calcite51 said...

I'm fine Diane - just came back from grocery shopping. I don't think Mum21 was on today - I hope she is well.

And I hope that the PJ's do find the 'leak and now I'm beginning to wonder if the apology that Roberio made to Drs. McCann's is true??

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