Friday, 29 February 2008

Madeleine: one fact, many lies, endless grief

THANK YOU JOJAM FOR SENDING US THE ARTICLE!
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It’s now 124 days since Madeleine McCann disappeared. Our correspondent charts a story that became global, lurid and often invented – and hears how the McCanns learnt to think positively after imagining the darkest scenarios and suffering uncontrollable grief

This is the story that has preoccupied at least two nations and elicited sympathy around the world. It is now 124 days old and has been told thousands of times in millions of words. Yet the story has only one fact: on the evening of May 3, a three-year-old child, Madeleine McCann, disappeared from the bedroom where she slept. We may think we know more than that, but we don’t, and no matter how often the story is repeated and the sole fact is spun, all we are reading is speculation. Or slurs and lies. There have been plenty of those, too, because when the media run out of facts and speculation, their more unscrupulous exponents resort to invention.

It’s not pretty. A story that was always tragic and has yet to have any kind of resolution, let alone a happy ending, is being treated with the abandon more normally meted out to soap opera characters or to those who elect to engage with the manufactured world of reality TV. The difference is that Madeleine is neither fictional nor a wannabe star, and neither are her parents, Gerry and Kate, who, you will note, don’t need a surname any more. We know them that well, or we think we do. Note, too, that referring to them as Gerry and Kate breaks the convention of referring to them as Kate and Gerry: when feeding the masses a tale of heartbreak the distraught mother is a more emotive presence than an anguished father.

There is no doubt that Madeleine’s disappearance – and what has happened since – raises important questions about how we can best protect our children from those who wish them harm, about the obligations of the media, and about our responses to the pain of people we don’t know. During the past three weeks I’ve examined these questions in Praia da Luz, the sunny whitewashed family idyll on the Algarve where I met the McCanns, and elsewhere.

As everyone is acutely aware, the reason we know so little about Madeleine’s disappearance is because she was abducted in Portugal, where the segredo de justiça law prevents the police from putting information about a criminal investigation in the public domain. Had Madeleine disappeared in Britain or the US, this would not have happened. Given that the Portuguese police admit that after four months they still have no idea where she is, or whether she is alive or dead, the first question has to be whether the lack of information is merely frustrating, and especially so for her parents, or whether it has impeded her safe recovery.


Neil Thompson has 30 years of police experience, latterly as a detective superintendent in charge of operations for the UK’s National Crime Squad. Now the director of security at red24, a private security company, he does not support the Portuguese tactic. “If a child is abducted for sexual exploitation or murder, no information is unhelpful,” he says bleakly. “In the UK you would release information to the media and the public that could help the situation, and keep back anything that might compromise the investigation, or frighten the perpetrator into harming the child. It’s a balancing act. Your priority is to get the victim back alive, arresting the perpetrator is lower down the scale. A no-information rule means that you’re working in the dark.

“The first two to three hours are vital. The first officer at the scene secures it and calls in detectives. A good officer has a nose for these things, and you have a process that tells you when a child has not wandered off. You set up road blocks, you check ports, you check intelligence – has anyone tried to snatch a child in the area? Can anyone describe a car? All that is fed into an incident room and analysed and the senior information officer decides what to release to the public. In the UK police can get a newsflash out straight away to TV and radio so you’ve got thousands of eyes and ears right at the beginning and you tell the public what you want them to look for. If you do that 24 or 48 hours later it loses impact.”

We don’t know exactly when Madeline was reported missing, and I am told that none of the published timelines relating to May 3 are accurate. I have also learned that the Portuguese response system is slow and unwieldy. The McCanns’ call to the police was received in Portimão, a 30-minute drive away, and the practice is for a local officer to attend the scene to assess whether a crime has been committed and whether to call for help. Police officers drove to apartment 5A at the Ocean Club where the McCanns were staying, then referred the case to the Policia Judiciaria in Portimão. Thus vital time was lost immediately after Madeleine’s disappearance – when it was imperative that the investigation should become active.

“You’re only as good as your expertise,” Thompson says. “If you’re in a country that hasn’t got a lot of serious crime and the training hasn’t gone into major investigations, you make mistakes and lose evidence.” Abductions are rare but not random, he adds. “Most child abductions are planned; it’s not a burglar who finds a child and takes it. Paedophiles go to places where there are children, such as Disney World. Whatever this abductor’s motive, he has been in the vicinity, he knows that there are children in this complex and that when people are on holiday they’re relaxed, and don’t think about risk. He will know the area and will have planned what he is going to do with the child. If he’s going to keep the child in a secure room, he will have been careful not to alert shopkeepers by buying food he wouldn’t normally buy. If a child is going to be sold for exploitation, in this case the unprecedented scale of the publicity has given the abductor a problem because he has an item that is readily identifiable all over the world and can’t be passed on.”

Those who specialise in tracing missing children acknowledge that publicity can unnerve a perpetrator, but insist that it is key and does save lives. “We know the public helps us to find missing children and it’s up to law enforcement officers on each case to make the call as to what they tell the public,” says Nancy McBride, the national safety director at the US National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, which has recovered 110,276 (just over 86 per cent) of the 127,737 children reported missing to it since 1984. “There’s always a risk, but it’s worth it. We never give up, we never close a case until we know what’s happened to a child.”

In seeking publicity, the McCanns had the clear objective of finding their daughter. What they did not envisage was that interest would spread, as Gerry puts it, like a forest fire, and that 150 journalists would suddenly descend on Praia da Luz, excited by the prospect of a story of a pretty child with attractive parents who are also middle class and intelligent – and far away from the stereotypical image of an inadequate single mother who might carelessly mislay a child and who certainly couldn’t afford to visit this aspirational resort. Add to that the parents’ status as doctors, people who save lives, yet who leave their children, Madeleine and her two-year-old twin siblings, without adult supervision in an apartment while they eat at a tapas bar a 52-second walk away, and the chattering classes are simultaneously full of sympathy and hooked.

When you first see apartment 5A you are struck by its exposed location. On the ground floor of a five-storey block, it is on a street corner and, like most of the Ocean Club apartments, not part of the gated section that houses the tapas bar and crèche. It would be easy to observe from different viewpoints, and perhaps to notice that this family had a regular pattern of behaviour in the evening, putting their children to bed, slipping across to the tapas bar and checking on them regularly.

But these are observations made with the benefit of bitter hindsight. Before Madeleine became a household name, no one thought like that on holiday, especially in an English-speaking resort so sedate that it doesn’t even have facilities for teenagers. In late April the weather is pleasant, the beach is a five-minute walk away and you’re there to relax and have fun. “It’s a quiet, safe resort,” says Gerry when we meet in a borrowed flat. “The distance from the apartment to the restaurant was 50 yards. We dined in the open-air bit and you can actually see the veranda of the apartment. It’s difficult because if you are [at home] cutting grass in the back with the mower, and that takes me about half an hour, and the children are upstairs in a bedroom, you’d never bat an eyelid. That’s similar to how we felt. We’ve been unfortunately proved wrong, out of the blue. It’s shattered everything.”

“Everyone I know who had been to Portugal with their children said it was very family friendly, and it did feel like that,” says Kate. “If I’d had to think for one second about it, it wouldn’t have happened. I never even had to think like that, to make the decision. It felt so safe that I didn’t even have to – I mean, I don’t think we took a risk. If I put the children in the car the chances of having an accident would be greater than somebody coming in, breaking into your apartment and lifting a child out of her bed. But you never think, I shouldn’t put the children in the car.”

This is the first time that the McCanns have confirmed that the apartment was broken into. This information does not compromise Madeleine’s safety, and rules out one of the numerous red herring theories that the police have explored, that Madeleine wandered away on her own. There is no logic in withholding it from the public.

“I have no doubt in my mind that she was taken by somebody from the room,” says Kate. “We don’t know if it was one person, two, or if it was a group of people, but I know she was taken.”

“There’s still hope because we don’t know who’s taken her, we don’t know where they’ve taken her and we certainly don’t know where she is,” says Gerry. “The first time I spoke to Ernie Allen, the chief executive of the National Centre for Missing and Exploited Children in the States, he said what I wanted to hear, and they’ve got enough experience of getting children back after long periods of time still to remain hopeful, and their own experience is that the younger the child, the less likelihood of serious harm. Don’t get me wrong, we’re not blinkered. The scenario that everyone thinks about is that a paedophile took her to abuse her and if that is the situation then statistically the chances are they would kill her. But we don’t know that and that’s the difficulty we’re dealing with. There are a range of scenarios and we want every single avenue explored because they’re all pretty rare. That doesn’t mean they should be represented in front page headlines as if all of them are likely, because they’re not.”

Does the Portuguese insistence that no information can be given about the investigation have any advantages? “For us, not having any information is very difficult,” Kate replies. “For us as parents it’s beneficial having information. We know that from our own jobs – the main complaint from patients’ families is lack of communication and not being informed. It’s detrimental.”

Of course the McCanns’ bid for information from the public, unsupported by details of the abduction, had already been hamstrung by the investigation’s slow start. There was also a language barrier. They now have phone access to a police officer who speaks English, but contact is variable, they say. You sense that they are often in situations where they would like to be forthright, but are obliged to keep their thoughts to themselves. “It is frustrating,” says Kate. “The whole situation makes you angry, that’s part of the whole grief that something like this has happened to Madeleine and to us. They’re all normal emotions and sometimes you do just want to explode.”

The McCanns sit on a sofa, Kate bone-thin – although I am told that she is very fit – extremely shy and modest, Gerry composed and easier to read. At the beginning of our interview Kate holds Madeleine’s pink toy cat in one hand and clutches her husband’s with the other. Kate’s face looks so tense and agonised that you might think that she was about to be tortured, and she seems to shrink into herself.

But as the hour passes she relaxes, takes her hand out of her husband’s and even laughs at some of the absurdities of their situation, recalling a day on the beach when she was on the phone to a friend and suddenly found herself being covered in kisses by a group of Portuguese matrons. Were this couple not wrapped up in this extraordinary event they would be unremarkable, the husband an assured man who likes to be in control, the wife a family-orientated mother who enjoys her job and still has friends from when she was 4.

Both are from working-class backgrounds: Gerry is the youngest of five children of an Irish matriarch and her joiner husband who brought up their family in Dumbarton, near Glasgow; Kate the only child of a Liverpool joiner and a civil servant. They met as junior doctors in Glasgow 12 years ago, got together as they travelled in New Zealand and she trained as an anaesthetist before retraining as a GP because, as two hospital doctors, they rarely saw each other.

In the immediate aftermath of Madeleine’s disappearance the McCanns found solace in their Catholic faith and were grateful for the warmth and care that greeted them at the Nossa Senhora da Luz church, a tiny, beautiful and peaceful sanctuary that forms a focal point for the community. “I felt cosseted,” Gerry says. “We felt so fragile and vulnerable. People kept saying ‘you’ll get her back’. It was what we needed to hear because we just had the blackest and darkest thoughts in the first 24, 36 hours, as if Madeleine had died. It was almost uncontrollable grief.

“The psychologist who came out to help us [Alan Pike from the Centre for Crisis Psychology in Skipton] was very good at turning our thought processes away from speculation. OK, there’s probabilities, but you don’t know that and he was very good at challenging the negatives. He was very much, ‘You will feel better after each thing that you take control of, even simple things’. We were surrounded by the Ambassador, the consul, PR crisis management, police, and he was saying ‘The decisions are yours’.”

“All these people we were meeting had to be there, and I felt so out of control and I found it quite scary,” says Kate. “I felt as if I’d been pushed into another world. Alan was saying, ‘There are little things you can take control of’.”

“For example,” says Gerry, “if you are asked ‘Do you want a cup of tea?,’ instead of saying ‘Mmm’, make a positive decision. Decide what you want. That combination of the Church, the community and the psychology helped very quickly. We agreed to interact because we thought it would probably help the search and it would be easier than hiding. Stay in the dark and you’re an enigma. There wasn’t anything to hide and in the first few weeks we were shown a lot of respect.”

The launch of the Find Madeleine campaign brought them more respect for their organisational skills. Friends and family rallied, a strategy was worked out, the media were fed pictures and quotes, and big businesses, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, David Beckham and numerous unknown individuals responded with support and donations. This money – the fund now stands at more than £1 million – enabled them to appoint a campaign manager and to publicise Madeleine’s disappearance by visiting other countries. With the possible exception of their blessing by the Pope at the Vatican, which was the brainwave of a tabloid newspaper and seemed to contradict the McCanns’ status as ordinary people, they were beyond reproach as campaigners, particularly as they began to engage with agencies that have expertise in recovering missing children. The story rolled along nicely, filling more front pages than any other event since the death of Diana, Princess of Wales, though not because the McCanns were managing the media, but because there was increasing evidence that Madeleine sells papers.

Then things started to go wrong. By the end of the second week of August, when the McCanns marked the 100th day since Madeleine’s disappearance by launching a YouTube initiative to help to find missing children, the Portuguese media had suggested that the McCanns could have killed their daughter, and the British press was not shy about repeating and even revelling in the “monstrous slurs”. Coincidentally that was the week I first visited Praia da Luz: there were nine television satellite trucks, each with a noisy generator, on the road outside apartment 5A, and the Portuguese crews were threatening to move outside the McCanns’ rented villa and had to be pacified with an interview. The Ocean Club asked the McCanns to stop bringing the twins to the kids’ club because other guests had complained about the media presence, and a couple of chain-smoking security men appeared outside reception. Praia da Luz, once a sardine-fishing community, now a manufactured resort with a reputation for guaranteeing uneventful and sunny family holidays, was becoming ugly.

The solicitor of Robert Murat, the only person to have been named by police as a suspect in the Madeleine investigation, didn’t help matters when he announced that business in Praia da Luz was suffering and that people there wanted “those bloody McCanns to go home”. However strong a news line this was, it wasn’t entirely true. Some shopkeepers continued to display posters appealing for information about Madeleine, others spoke tactfully about their sympathy for the McCanns. “It’s not that we want the McCanns to go home, it’s just that we want the bad feeling to go away,” said one café owner, who declined to be named. “Last year you had to book three weeks ahead to get in here in the evening, now you don’t need to book. Praia da Luz has become the place where you lose your children. It’s terribly sad, and it’s terrible for the McCanns.”

Something else was happening, too, that wasn’t entirely edifying. At the church a steady stream of Portuguese worshippers and tourists approached the shrine to Madeleine to the left of the altar, and many were devout and respectful. Others nipped in to take a quick picture of the shrine and left without a bow of the head; after all, it’s not every year that you go on holiday and find yourself in the presence of a moment so big that it is being recorded by television cameras.

Outside Robert Murat’s home, which could not be seen from the road because of a deep and dense hedge, a Portuguese tourist checked with me that she had the right house, then stuffed herself into the hedge to get a proper look. (She was obviously not the first to do so, as sections of the hedge are now dying.) A hundred yards away sight-seers posed for photographs alongside the television crews positioned with 5A in the background.

On a seat overlooking the beach, Martin Payne, a well-meaning hairdresser from Stratford-upon-Avon, displayed an intriguing mixture of sympathy and fascination. He had just spotted Gerry in his Renault Scenic (which was more than I had at this stage; the McCanns are impossible to get near unless their campaign manager vets and approves you) and was happy to volunteer every known fact about the McCanns, and to speculate, in detail, on what might have happened to Madeleine.

“You’ve been reading too many books, Martin,” said his wife. “I feel the same way that I felt when Princes Diana was killed,” Martin said. “Such a loss to a lovely family. We want to have a conclusion to this.”

When I suggest to the McCanns that some of the interest in them borders on the prurient, they seem to be unaware of it. At church they register the crowd outside as kindly support, and don’t notice those on the fringes who are there just to spot them. In other contexts their unsought fame appals them. “We feel totally exposed, as though we have been stripped bare,” says Kate.

They tend not to pick up the more sickly nuances within the press, because they don’t read it; instead the campaign team (which consists of the full-time lobbyist the McCanns hired after the fund was set up, plus two other part-timers who ensure seven-day-a-week cover to field the innumerable media inquiries) shows them what they need to see, including translations of Portuguese coverage. And as they demonstrated last week with the announcement that they are to take legal action against the Portuguese newspaper Tal e Qual, for its allegation that they killed Madeleine with an overdose of sedatives, they will no longer tolerate lurid claims that defame them.

“We had no illusions that we could control the media,” says Gerry. “The way that information has got out has been handled incredibly badly, without a doubt. It’s almost as though some people are thinking out loud. It’s all very well to have a potential scenario but that shouldn’t necessarily be written up as if there is evidence to support it. I think this has been handled very irresponsibly by a number of people. We don’t believe there is any evidence to support any of the deluded headlines, and the police have made that clear.”

“There are times when you just want to shout out ‘That’s wrong’, because I think we’ve been done injustice in a lot of ways,” says Kate.

“There’s a blacker picture painted than what is true,” says Gerry, “whether it is how much we were drinking, which was a gross exaggeration, or how often we were checking. We know what we did and we are very responsible. It’s bad enough for us to have to deal with the fact that someone saw an opportunity – to then have elements sneering at your behaviour and making it look much worse than it was. It’s difficult because a lot of untruths, half truths and blatant lies have been published. It was published that we had 14 bottles of wine.”

“In an hour between us,” interjects Kate. “I’d have been impressed with that in my student days. Not only that, they qualify it by saying eight bottles of red and six of white, as though it gives it more credibility. You just want to scream.”

Where do the Portuguese media get their information? Brendan de Beer, the editor of the English language Portugal News, is the only journalist to have spoken at length to Chief Inspector Olegário Sousa, the spokesman for the PolÍcia Judiciária on the Madeleine investigation. Sousa, who has 20 years’ service and has previously focused on crimes relating to works of art, armed robberies and car-jacking, suggested that some information is being inadvertently leaked by officers at informal lunches with friends. De Beer is more specific and suggests that some of the more incongruous claims are no more than gossip.

Some of the police detectives involved in the case have spoken off the record, he says, and journalists have contacts within the police just as they do in Britain. “I’ve spoken to a couple of them [police officers], but never to an extent where they told me a syringe had been found in the room or there was blood on the keys of the hire car. That kind of information seems to come from police constables. You get someone who tells something to their wife, they tell their hairdresser, who tells a journalist.

“I think that there’s a lot of invention. A journalist might say to a detective, ‘Do you think Madeleine fell and died and Kate and Gerry got rid of the body?’ Off the record the detective might say ‘It’s possible’, and they write a story based on ‘sources close to the investigation.’ I’d be very surprised if there was any bribery, though a constable does earn only about €600 or €700 a month, so it could happen. The suggestion that the police were closing in on the McCanns . . . I’ve been disappointed by some of the reporting.”

Not that British reporting has been irreproachable. The slurs have been widely dissected, a suspect has been invented by one needy tabloid, and when I rang Paolo Marcilemo, the editor of the Correio da Manhã, which has a reputation for scurrilous reporting, he said that he was no longer giving interviews because the British press has misquoted him.

For the McCanns there is no respite, though they are slowly becoming accustomed to their grief. “They’re not gone, the feelings,” Gerry says. “When we enjoyed ourselves with the kids we had guilt – how could we enjoy ourselves when Madeleine was missing? But it’s so important for the kids that it’s unbridled love and attention for them. I’m definitely much better at doing that now, almost carefree for a lot of the time. Not 100 per cent.”

They will return to their home in Rothley, in the East Midlands, they confirm, and the timing will depend on the police investigation, which is currently in a state of hiatus as the PolÍcia Judiciária waits for the results of British tests on samples taken from the apartment.

Gerry has been home twice, he says, and has been inside the house. “I was pretty anxious about it, but it’s now a comfort. We’ll go back when we’ve done as much as we possibly can for Madeleine. We’re at a point where staying here is not necessarily adding anything to the campaign to find her.”

He has also discussed returning to work with his line manager; he elected to take unpaid leave rather than compassionate leave shortly after Madeleine’s disappearance. As a cardiologist who deals with very sick patients he doesn’t want to return immediately to a full-time schedule of patient care, but plans to focus initially on MRI scans, administration and academic work. “When you’re seeing 12 or 15 patients a day you have to be focused on them and can’t be thinking about what you want to do for missing children in Europe. When I’m occupied and applied it helps, and work eventually will take some of that focus. The fund enables us to make decisions for us and for Madeleine, and not for financial necessity. It’s not paying for any of our accommodation here, but it has covered a lot of expenses for us, and trips, and it helps to provide support for people to come out to help us, flights and things.”

As a part-time GP, Kate’s job is patient-centred, and she has yet to decide whether she will return to it. What they are certain of is that they will continue to campaign for systems to be established to help to recover missing children. Portugal, like Spain and many other European countries, does not have a sex offenders’ register, and as for the UK, although a Child Rescue alert system was launched here last year, relying primarily on speedy contact with the media, it has yet to be tested. Neither does Britain have any reliable statistics on missing children, and this means that the scale of the problem is unknown.

Fortunately, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children has a system that works, and can be copied. It is based in Virginia, employs 300 people and its success relies on instant media alerts and distribution of fliers, and a high level of training for the professionals involved. Its agenda has always been to make its methods operate globally, and now it has Gerry and Kate McCann on its side. Their determination to be involved in this task is the first sign that something positive, tangible and enduring could come from what has so far been the bewildering and tragic story of Madeleine McCann.

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article2379833.ece

325 comments:

1 – 200 of 325   Newer›   Newest»
Anonymous said...

This article is articulate and well written. I think this poor couple has been crucified in the court of public opinion and that it has been unfair.

This is calcite51 - having trouble signing in - again...

SassyP said...

Hiya Early-Bird!

If you have trouble, rather than signing in as "Anonymous" you can click on Name/URL and put Calcite under name and leave the URL blank. That way everyone can see straight away who you are!

Glad you like the article - JoJam was the one who suggested it!

Hope to see you later.

Jojam said...

Good morning All,

When I first read this well written balanced article, it confirmed my belief that most of what was published in the media was just rumour, hearsay & speculation. The media behaved in a totally intrusive, irresponsible & unjust manner causing the family untold added grief.

Because the media published speculative stories day after day, the public then began to pull the couple apart on forums. The forums were out of control, an obssession for some, only too ready to come up with the most outlandish theories. The media appeared only too happy to feed this obssession with spin, leaks, speculation & lies.

Yes Calcites, this poor couple have been crucified by public opinion fed by the MEDIA & that's very unfair

Mandz said...

Excellent article and thank you jojam.

What have we done to this couple? People should hang their heads in shame for stripping this couple to the bone. Yes they asked the media to come in a help to find “THEIR CHILD” who can blame them for that? I would be shouting from the roof tops if this was my child. But they did not deserve the lies being told about them from the PJ and media. These people have taken and used this tragedy to make money and I believe the PJ deliberately did this to take the limelight off them and to sway public opinion rather than just admitting to their catalogue of errors.

Disgusting that they have attempted to destroy this couple on a daily basis as if they have not got enough worries – their child is still missing.


Ps for future donks that wants to take my post and paste it in another blog just ask at least have some manners. Thank you!

Jojam said...

Hi Mandz,

I think the article shows that a lot of what was reported was just gossip from all sorts of people not just pj leaks I think it's more a case of careless talk etc..........but it has sure brought out the worst in some people.

With regards to cut & paste from one blog to another IMO it should not happen at all. If I want to comment on any blog I will do so. I do not feel anyone has the right to cut & paste other's comments..... Unfortunately it happens.......There is Guilt on all sides!!

assasin said...

it is innate to blame parents also. Particularly the mother.

The mother is the one who chooses whether a child has life or not and a central part of human psyche is to blame the mother [their own] consciously or unconsciously for their own imperfect existance. Etc,etc. Just Another reason why we see such vitriole and narcissism coming from people....its an intolerance/loathing of their own diseased self.

Off now lol. Will look in late tonight but i got way too little done yesterday with being in here all day:-)

Take care all X

Anonymous said...

Jojam - This is a very good article and I feel so sorry for the McCanns too.

I have been looking at many sites this morning and agree with you about not pasting other peoples comments. I was looking on Alsabella's site also and there is a comment at 9.14 which I will not paste that I also agree with for the following reason. We all are disgusted at the way people speak about the McCanns but I see on all sites posters say really evil things about each other. These are people that they do not know, yet they assume too much about them then state it as fact. So sad isn't it. I would like to feel confident enough to post with a name but I am not, so you know me as coward if you want

Jojam said...

Anonymous,

I agree there are some very nasty comments on different sites.....The internet has allowed people to remain anonymous even when they use a name it has shown me how very nasty and vindictive some people are.........very sad........I only hope that they never have to suffer the pain that The McCann family are suffering!!

If you could post with a name (not your own)it would stop you being confused with other Anon's who may not have the same views as you.

Have a good day......bye

Jojam said...

Anonymous,

Regarding your point about how poster say evil things about each other..........This is not only bad manners & childish demonstrating the poster has no dignity. It only serves to undermine any sensible debate and shows no respect for Madeleine.

I tend to try & ignore them

Mum21 said...

A great article Jojam...and very much to the point. One thing about it that sticks in my mind is...if only the PJ had done a better job straight away then perhaps this mystery would have been solved.In cases of missing children police do need the help of the general public...it is how they piece things together and where they often get their first lead.
Unfortunately for Madeleine...this did not happen.
Hopefully if nothing else..the PJ may have learned a hard lesson from this case.
But I honestly doubt it.

Mum21 said...

Anonymous.
I have also read the post on Alsabella's blog at 9.14am. And to be perfectly honest with you I do not agree with what this person said. It is not an accurate comment at all on what happened yesterday.
But as far as I am concerned that person can say what they want to because I and other posters on this blog witnessed what did actually happen.
That is all I have to say on the matter.

dianeh said...

Hi Sassy, Assassin, Jojam, Manz

How are you all today? It is nearly my bedtime and I am a litle tired today, had a rotten headache while I was at work.

Anonymous, I think the difference between the posters on here is this. Agro/abuse between posters on the two sites is really a lot of nothing. We are all faceless people, many making up false facades to try to make themselves more important. But on Alsabella's blog, a lot of the abuse is directed at the McCanns, their friends and family (go and read the open letter to Mrs Healey). They are not faceless people living in a fantasy, they are real people with a real life, a real family and a missing daughter.
Yes, we can dish it out to the so called anti's (I think nutcases a more apt description) or the PJ (another faceless being) but none of us would do the same (at least I think not) to anyone in the situation that the McCanns find themselves in.

SassyP said...

Mum21

Casa Crud has been running one story since yesterday and that is what did NOT happen here! Insanity!

Just for the record, this is NOT MY BLOG (perhaps Claudia will read this as she has apparently subscribed to all our posts and the Portuguese flag is still on Viseu on our Feedjit). It was Rosie's idea - and it was a very good idea! Four of us run it - it is a team blog.

Let's just ignore any more of that silliness - if that's their only topic it's their problem!

SassyP said...

Hiya Dianeh!

Our paths hardly cross for time-difference reasons!

Have to go in a minute - have to work on the other side of town.

See you later I hope.

dianeh said...

Anonymous

What we have is called compassion and it is severely lacking on Alsabella's or Vile's or 3 Arguidos blog.

But if you want to test it. Go and post a reasonable argument (preferable one with an article or research to back it up) that is in direct contrast to the views on Alsabella's site. See how you go.

dianeh said...

Hi Sassy

I try to keep up with your posts, I try to scan back to see what is going on but you are right, hardly ever on at the same time.

Have fun at work????

SassyP said...

Dianeh

Yeah right! Thanks! Would rather be in your position of just going to bed!

dianeh said...

Hi

Does anyone know who the kiwi is, that has been visiting?

dianeh said...

Sassy

Just put daughter to bed (not well, has a terrible cough) and am enjoying a little bit of me time.

Anonymous said...

Mum 21 and all responses to me

Although I am very much pro McCann
when it comes to blog sites I think they are all tarred with the same brush. None agree with anybody who does not share their view, all abuse other posters personally, and all blame the other side. IMO I think it better if everybody just choose a site that shares the same views so they can have pleasant discussions and avoid interferring in other sites conversations. Maybe what is seems simple to me is difficult for some to do. I have to go now as expecting the grandchildren soon

dianeh said...

Anonymous.

Not really true.

I am always happy to debate with someone who actually has an argument that has some back up. Or if they have a reasonable theory. But they dont come up very often. I am not interested in debating with deranged people who talk about rumours in the press as fact, tell lies, promote their own opinion as though it were the gospel truth, etc. As I said, go and read the letter to Mrs Healey and see if that is the work of a healthy mind.

And although we are almost all pro's on here, we dont always agree over details but dont get into hurling abuse at each other.

Enough said. I know the type of person that I am. I also know that I started as a very polite poster but have been so thoroughly abused after my polite posts, that I know longer hold back, although I am not yet in the league of assassin or janegt, or jak

dianeh said...

On this article, I also think it is very well written. But I seem to remember that when it came out it was ridiculed by the anti's. Even though the author has obviously done her homework and had direct contact with the McCanns, it was still ridiculed.

I think it gives a good overview of the situation, as well as paints a sympathetic situation of the McCanns, without being overly critical of the PJ. It really does highlight the secrecy laws and the difference between that and the UK. Very good article.

Anonymous said...

Dinah H

I too really enjoy a good debate but it is difficult with this case because whilst we feel for the McCanns nobody really knows what happened so IMO everything is just theory. However I personally think Madeleine was abducted or maybe kidnapped for a huge ransom that the McCanns are negotiating via Metodo 3. (Silly bat thoughts)

However I still feel, because I have read it for myself, that many (not all) posters on most differing points of view sites seem to enjoy arguement and abuse with each other in favour of sensible discussion. I think I would like to leave it at that because I am tending to be making an issue of this and that was not my intent. Sorry I cannot stay longer.

dianeh said...

I also came across an interesting article on cadaver dogs, while doing some research for my own piece of mind.

http://www.channel3000.com/news/15360268/detail.html

This article is about a murderer who as admitted to killing his wife and then told where the body has been hidden (this was over many years). Apparently the sniffer dogs were only correct twice out of eight times, and this is in the situation where there definitely was a body.

Sort of makes a mockery of how crucial the dog's evidence is. Particularly if you believe the story that the dog went past the McCanns car and then was pulled back to it but the handler.

dianeh said...

Anon,

enjoy your day and please come back and tell us your views in more detail.

dianeh said...

If you want to use the link I put up, you will have to make sure that you have .html at the end (has been cut off).

Here is is again.

http://www.channel3000.com/news/15360268/detail.html

Mum21 said...

Anonymous

All I can say in answer to your comment to me is..if you feel the way you say you do...then blogs are not for you.
None of them.
If you want to debate with us..then fine. But if you just want to post comment after comment about how blogs should or should not be...then I am sorry, I have better things to do.

JANEGT said...

what a good article, though really harrowing to read and remind ourselves of what happened and additional background too.

These leaks are unsupportable. No way can any of that be justified on top of these archaic secrecy laws. If nothing else, I hope this results in that situation being updated totally.

JANEGT said...

calcite good morning/afternoon

If you fill in your google details then next time, click on sign in,at top right, then page back and you are in and signed automatically? I noticed you had probs last night. Once in, it's easy....just getting in.....;o(

let me know if this happens for you, it should........

JANEGT said...

tv full of women proposing...oh dear the one on GMTV didn't look at all happy about being asked. The 2nd programme was a lot happier.......

Happy Leap Year Day everyone....

;o)))

Anonymous said...

SIMPLY LUDICROUS SAYS:

What was the evidence to support abduction?

Mum21 said...

SIMPLY LUDICROUS...What was the evidence to support she was not abducted?

Jojam said...

Hi dianeh, you make some good points.........yes I'm glad to say most on here have compassion & even if we may not always agree with someone most remain polite, there are always the odd exception but on the whole I much prefer the atmosphere here.

I do remember that several DE posters rubbished this article when it first appeared but I feel it well researched

Hope your daughter is better soon
enjoy your me time.......sleep well

Mum21 said...

Happy Leap Year Jane.

Anonymous said...

Mum 21

I was hoping when my grandchildren leave to debate about my kidnapping theory, but it seems that because I have posted something that does not interest you I am not really welcomed here. I was going to ask my grandchild how to sign on here with a proper name too. I am sorry you feel that it is not worth trying to make a blogspot a pleasant place to debate because I certainly. This is obviously the wrong one for me so I will not comment here again.

Mum21 said...

Anonymous . That is entirely up to you. But I did invite you to debate if you look back on my comment to you.

Anonymous said...

SIMPLY LUDICROUS SAYS:

mum21

DNA, Forensics, inconsistencies in statements, Ludicrous sightings, the parents being made main suspects possibly due to be requestioned for the third time, also other Tapas members to be requestioned.

Now, what was the evidence to suggest an abduction?

JANEGT said...

hi diane

what league am I in?

I do not abuse, I respond. Yesterday lies were spread, I was called 'it' with no life, sad, bitter, etc etc won't go on these were personal taunts, not a debating post at all. I am not a sitting duck for anyone. I have been accused of posting on a site as anonymous that I have never, and will never visit. I did visit Alsabella's at her invitation and posted my disgust at the open letter to Mrs Healy, noe not Mr and Mrs, just Mrs...... in my name not as anonymous. I am not a coward. I do not stir, call abuse, I respond to what I have been given, some of it obscene rants at myself and others on here including the THE most obscene language. Had you seen these multiple posts you would not say I am in a 'league' of any sort. I assure you.

This pain i so evident on the photo at front of this blog and it is heartbreaking to see how Kate and Gerry were subjected to a bushfire of rumour, unnuendo and the utmost ripping apart, then they were cruelly gagged by the secrecy law the PJ hold. They must be in its, but are forced to carry on as 'normal' for the sake of Sean and Amelie. The poor grandparents have just to look on at all this turmoil. Hopelessly as they canno actually DO anything but be strong for them and offer support. It is truly a tragic situation. The fast this moves forward the better for everyone concerned in this.

Anonymous said...

Mum 21

It was my view that you said if I want to debate fine, but you had no time for my other view, which I just said I thought were important too.

I do not feel welcomed here at all and have obviously got off on the wrong foot so I will take my kidnap theory and my som inside information about Metodo elsewhere and hope I will get a better reception. Thank you and good day to you

JANEGT said...

diane

What an interesting post re the cadaver dogs not sniffing out an existing body in known burial area. That says such a lot doesn't it?

It shows some were rgt, saying that it is not conclusive at all. was that Mark55 or Laz?

re our Kiwi visitor, . . is that the one from the DX along here now?

Mum21 said...

SIMPLY LUDICROUS
That is not evidence..it is press spin and hearsay.
Nobody yet knows what the DNA results were.

Also if by being made suspects means they are guilty...the so is Murat too.

Plus at this point in time we do not know if or what the inconsistencies in statements are.

Neither do we know if they intend to re-interview the parents.

Try asking Jane Hill the same question..because it seems her words are beyond not believing.

JANEGT said...

just popped in now popping out....to be somewhere soon so bye all

Jojam said...

Anonymous,

Don't be put off.........I would be interested in your theory.....I may not agree with it but I will be polite............as I say most of the time this is a pleasent blogspot.

Anonymous said...

SIMPLY LUDICROUS SAYS:

GAGGED BY THE SECRECY LAW. LOL!

It did not stop them puplicising that K had been offered a 2 year deal. Sky News ran it on the News all day, it would have taken 5 mins to find out that it was a rubbish Team leak as no deal exists in Portuguese Law.

Anonymous said...

SIMPLY LUDICROUS SAYS:

Mum21

Did you answer. What is the evidence to suggest abduction?

Forgot to add to my last post. They left their 3 children age 3 and under all alone whilst they went out to socialise, I think it is called neglect. Culpability.

Mum21 said...

Diane..a very intersting link..thank you.
Being a great dog lover myself...plus owning two working class dogs...I can honestly say they can be very intelligent and clever. But...there is a limit to what they can achieve and do.
Don't get me wrong..because I admire these dogs greatly and they are a great asset to any police force. But they are not infallible and do not always get it right

Mum21 said...

SIMPLY LUDICROUS

There is a big difference between neglect and being responsible for killing your child...be it accidently or on purpose.

In answer to your repeated question...at this point in time there is NO EVIDENCE in the public domain to support their guilt...or an abduction.

Anonymous said...

Thank you Jojam you seem to be a very reasonable and pleasant person. The only reason I have a kidnap theory is because my son works in Barcelona and his office is near Metodo 3. He often has coffee with some of the girls from that office and he has been telling me about some things they have said which make a lot of sense when you piece the whole puzzle together. Metodo are far better at negotiating than looking for missing children.

I am so sorry but I do not want to discuss it further on here, I really have been put off but my regards to you.

Anonymous said...

SIMPLY LUDICROUS SAY:

Mum21

When did I say they killed their child accidentally or otherwise?

Jojam said...

Hi Mum21, Glad you liked the article.........Yes I agree the PJ appear not to have handled things well.........but all police forces make mistakes even the British..........sad fact is that if it had been handled better the outcome may have been different....we will never know.

Well I have to go now........have a good day

dianeh said...

Simply Ludicrous

Your name says it all.

As mum21 says, all you have to back up the theory Madeleine wasnt abducted, are leaks to the press, many of which have been refuted (for eg the so-calls DNA evidence) by other press leaks.

And I would like to stress that the McCanns press spokesman doesnt have any influence on the Portugese press, which is where the majority of these things come from.

And as for the so-called 2 year deal. Their laywer said it never happened (according to the papers). However, that doesnt mean that one of the family didnt interpret it to be that and then spoke out of turn. And I agree the press should have done a bit of research to find out if deals can be offered by the PJ. But do you know if the portugese justice system has sentencing guidelines for different crimes. If that is the case, than something may have been mentioned that an accidental death conviction would only attract a certain sentence. Which is very different to saying if you confess then you would get only 2 years.

But you know what, neither of us was there, so this is all pure speculation.

But do agree, the press need to stop just repeating stories and do a bit of research to get further corroboration of stories before they are printed.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Jojam/Anon, Good Afternoon.

I work with somebody that had dealings with M3 approx 10 years ago. I do not know in what capacity and I am not on a level with this person where I would pry. He advised me that they have a very good reputation across Europe particularly in the area of Kidnap & Ransoms which kind of concurs with Anon's post as to them being better at negotiating.

Have a nice day, I am still at work so cannot stop. Bye for now.

dianeh said...

Mum21

As for the dogs. I have the utmost respect for these dogs and am constantly amazed at how good they are. BUT this is one of the few cases (in my link) where the accuracy of the dogs has been put up for scrutiny.

dianeh said...

Simply Ludicrous

If Madeleine wasnt abducted and wasnt killed (accidentally or otherwise) then can you please enlighten us to what you think happened to her.

dianeh said...

Really Anonymous (as opposed to SL Anon) and Tinkerbell.

I didnt know that M3 dealt in ransoms and the like. Perhaps that is one of the reasons that they were hired. That is if Madeleine were found, she could be negotiated out by payment.

Because I firmly believe there has been no ransom demands, not authentic ones anyway. If you are going to kidnap a child for money, then it is usually someone from a wealth family. And the McCanns dont really fit into that league.

Anonymous said...

SIMPLY LUDICROUS:

Dianeh,
This statement was not speculation from PT. It was from Gerry's sister Philolomena announced to the world in a telephone call on this morning to Phillip Schoefield that this is what Kate was offered, his sister said she had been told this in a telephone call to them in PT the previous evening.

Are you saying that PR spokesman for the McCanns has influence in the British Press?

Anonymous said...

SIMPLY LUDICROUS SAYS:

What a welcome from you Dianeh. 'Your name says it all'. Did you not read the top right of the Blog page. As for enlighten you. Why should I?

Mum21 said...

SIMPLY LUDICROUS

Do you forget something important to this issue?

It was stated by Kate's Portuguese lawyer that it was a misunderstanding on her part due to the language barrier.
It must be very difficult for both sides when both speak a different language and have to rely on an interpreters version of what is being said.
Surely even you must know that.

Dobywallah said...

MUM 21. What is the point in trying to convince "Simply Ludicrous" that Madeleine was abducted and in my opinion by Sea. There is no other sensible explanation is there, the PJ are 'stalling' because they have no evidence against the McCanns and don't like admitting they have been complete idiots. What proof is there that Madeleine was abducted? WELL the answer TO that is so obvious as anybody with a 'hapeth' of sense would realize! There is no evidence to prove otherwise so "abduction" is the only realistic and sensible answer! But some people just don't want to accept the truth, there are some I believe who just come on to these forums just for a good argument, helps to pass the day on!ABDUCTION DEFINTITELY, TAKEN BY SEA,NO DOUBT ABOUT IT!

dianeh said...

Simply Ludicrous.

Actually, Clarence probably has a little, as some of his mates are still journalists. But just go to some of the other blogs on Madeleine to read the Clarence apparently has godlike powers in his ability to influence the press worldwide.

And my post didnt deny that it was said, what I said (if you cared to read it properly) is direct quote from my previous post.

" However, that doesnt mean that one of the family didnt interpret it to be that and then spoke out of turn."

In other words, Philomena (I will take your word for this) spoke without really knowing the facts and may have thought this was what happened after speaking to Gerry. It was neither Kate nor Gerry nor their lawyer who said it. This is why the family doesnt/shouldnt comment on things, Clarence does. And quite rightly as every thing that is said is constantly scrutinised.

Mum21 said...

Hi Doby. Good to see you.

Yes..I agree abduction is the only sensible answer to this mystery'
Hopefully one day the truth will come out...and the sooner the better.

By the way can you count? that is a clue to our Ludicrous poster...who does not have the guts to show us her/his name.

Anonymous said...

SIMPLY LUDICROUS SAYS:

Mum21
A mix up due to translation, the Lawyer spoke quite clearly on TV when K emerged after being inerviewed. I thought there would be a wholly innocent reason.
As for no information in the Public Domain to support guilt you are wrong. Neglect = Culpability.

Doby said...

Can't stay on I'm sorry to say, have much to do this afternoon,'story of my life!' but will probably be back later. Bye for now, still got my sore throat by the way if anybody wants it?
Bye XX

dianeh said...

Doby

Nice to hear from you.

But I would still like to know the alternative theory that SL is keeping to him/herself.

I agree abduction but as to the how's and why's, I have no clue and have formed no theories.

And SL, I may have been a little insulting but I am definitely not goading or antagonising but I can if you let me get a bit warmed up. Here's a tip. You probably need to take a good hard look at your id if you get insulted by comments such as mine.

Doby said...

MUM21.
I think Mum21 that we probably already know who it is and he/she doesn't want to 'expose him/her self. May even be "Petefergie" God forbid?

dianeh said...

SL

The neglect thing has been done to death. Once again, for the record. NO ONE that posts on here believes it was right to leave the kids alone.
Leaving the kids alone, however doesnt make the McCanns guilty of anything else. And if Madeleine was abducted, it doesnt lessen the guilt of the abductor to any degree whatsoever.

Clear enough for you.

dianeh said...

I am off to bed now.

Will try to get back on tomorrow, your night, when most of you will be back.

Cheers

Mum21 said...

LUDICROUS you said

"As for no information in the Public Domain to support guilt you are wrong. Neglect = Culpability."

Ok..if that is a fact then why bother to interview anyone again...just charge them.

Your stupid comments sometime amaze me Ludicrous!

dianeh said...

SL

No Phil probably got the part about the PJ right.

No translation needed for that.

Doby said...

Sorry ladies but definitely must go now....... talk later, bye. X

Mum21 said...

LUDICROUS
We do not need a cushion to bite. We were quite happy without you..thank you.
Good bye

dianeh said...

Mum21

I dont really care who SL is.

Ludicrous sums it up.

dianeh said...

Good night for real this time.

Mum21 said...

Diane...you are so right. Just popped in to incite trouble...with not one sensible comment to debate.

Anonymous said...

Cláudia said...
I just heard on TV that a child looking like Mari Luz was spotted in Italy. The girl was found and the police contacted Mari Luz's father to tell him that, infortunately, the girl wasn't Mari Luz. Her father travelled to Italy anyway because he wanted to see by himself and make sure it wasn't her. Just like the Mccanns, uh? I guess Mari Luz's parents really believe she is still alive.

29 February 2008 00:52

What a horrible thing to say about Mari Luz's parents and this poster seems to think or know Mari Luz is dead.
This beggars belief and I am passing this post to Leicester police.
She is logged on 24 hours a day. WHY ?

Rosiepops said...

Hi Ladies,

How are you all today?

Rosiepops said...

must say I am only half way through today's article but have found it extremely interesting, especially as it appears to give more of an insight from "Kate and Gerry's" position, which i have always felt that when we can all read what they have to say, much will be cleared up and a lot of this animosity will disappear.
All I suspect except for the hardened McCann haters, which I hasten to add seem to have their own agenda's anyway, agenda's that Assasin was debating on here yesterday, which helped me to view things in a different light.

Anonymous said...

This beggars belief and I am passing this post to Leicester police.
She is logged on 24 hours a day. WHY ?

29 February 2008 13:49

_______________

Perhaps online from the PJ office...who knows?

Mandz said...

A little help needed: excuse my ignorance but where exactly did this person who calls her/himself "mandz" first post the comment that our dearest Doc reported earlier? I need this information as I am emailing it to Portugal to a few people who are greatly interested in that sort of stuff...and I do not mean the PJ only. If I were that person, I would start seriously a good old fund. It may be needed sometime in the future.

**********************************

Hi Athena, Docman and Alsacrapblog,

Just wanted to advise you that if you have a problem with my post then say so however I don’t care for your “threats” and in future don’t be a spineless coward and take my post then post and attack it on your blog site. Just debate from where you got the post from?
I was going to reply to you on your site because that is where my post oddly ended up however I decided to post here because I know now you will no doubt be coming here to pick peoples posts up and take them back to your blog because you have obviously nothing to chat about.
Funny how you can state your theory on K&G and how little Maddie “died” however if one dares mention an opinion about your PJ your all coming after me!!!!!!!! I’m sooo scared (not) however I’ve got plenty of cash so it looks like I’m sorted!!!!!!!!!
Alsa I noticed a little lie in one of your posts! I have never stated on the DX that “everyone leaves their children on holiday” however you wrote that it is acceptable to drink and drive whilst under the influence of alcohol with children? Tut Tut because I don’t and that is child neglect therefore you are the one who is stupid.

Rosiepops said...

Hi Mandz,

Very well said and well written.

true too, any Portuguese person can say what they like about Kate and Gerry, state unequivocally that they killed their daughter in whatever mad blood curdling way they managed to think up on that particular day ie Gerry kicked the spinal fluid out of his daughter type thing (Irina) and this is apparently OK, but we are not allowed to pass comment on the PJ who have been found utterly incompetent and totally and pathetically useless.

I think (IMO) that Portugal has a serial child abductor on the loose and because of the damage this may do to Portugal's tourist industry, they would rather brush it under the carpet than admit it. (These are my opnions and not proven fact)
Instead of changing their appalling archaic laws and getting themselves a DNA based sex offenders register and take pro clean up Portugal steps to right this disgusting problem (that any country could have) they choose to hide it, thus ensuring that Portugal carries on suffering these despicable problems. Only it is not Portugal suffering is it? It is innocent children who are being put in danger.
This og course is my opinions,based on the fact that it is 2008, Portugal is part of the European Union and they still have ridiculous secrecy laws to foul up any investigation and they still DO NOT have a sex offenders register, despite suffering several child abductions. MY opinions, not fact, my opinions.

Mandz said...

Hi Rosie!

Absolutely!

Apologies for posting this here however I don’t see why I should be forced to sign in to another blog and defend my post? This is where I stated my opinion therefore I have answered from where the post originated from. They are trying to keep me silence however they will no succeed and the pathetic “threats” are really childish and stupid.
There is a problem with children going missing and they need to take action now.

Anonymous said...

Why are so many of the articles posted on this blog old ones?

Anonymous said...

hi everybody,Ihave just arrived,hows things.

SassyP said...

This place is going wally again!

If you read the Casa Crud site, they say we are all ripping into each other. It only happens when some anonymous or other turns up and starts stirring.

Please stop falling for these tactics. Just ignore any trouble makers (however insulting they are) and let us just delete them when one of us is around. DON'T GIVE CASA CRUD AND VILE THE SATISFACTION OF GETTING RILED!!! IT'S WHAT THEY WANT.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Wally ? thats something I have with me fish n chips! Hey Sass are you at work ?

Mum21 said...

Put a stop to it then SassyP...don't let them post here. We don't constantly post on their blogs
It is as simple as that.

Mum21 said...

This blog is called "Justice for ALL The Family"...it is not like the other two vicious blogs.

Rosiepops said...

Sassy

well said MMF to them is what I say. LOL

Tinkerbell43 said...

Hi Mum21,

Thats why I dont understand those posters that say we are not interested in alternative views. This is a Pro Blog, it is what it says on the tin!

We are here for people that share our views to HYS without fear of being attacked.

If they dont share our views, then there are other blogs they can visit, it is as simple as that.

johnfrank said...

Hello everyone,just called in,to see if anything new.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Hi Johnfrank,

Have not long logged on myself. I dont believe there is any new news!

Rosiepops said...

Tinks

Absolutely spot on as usual, if they don't like it they can take a hike, they do not actually bother me and they can waste their time writing their garbage if they want, I don't agree with them so I ignore the idiots. Let them go back to idiotsville where they came from.
We are not ripping each other apart on here as usual that is a gross over exaggeration and the thing it anyone reading that on the vile blog will come over here to read it and find it is not true, they will see a nice chatty blog with pleasant people blogging away and if these people are reasonable they will probably stay and hopeful blog with us, so thanks Viv for the publicity xxx

Having said that of course, this may not be so likely as Viv only has around 3 posters and they are part of the kindergarten group of first time posters I think.

Forget them, they are just idiots who are slowly being eaten away by their own hatred.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Hi Rosie, I agree, they can call me what they like and say what they like about our blog as long as they keep it to their own site I'm not bothered.

If they dont then it will be deleted, simple as!.

I know their mentality so I wouldnt expect them to be complimentary.

I had no interest in what they had to say before and I have no interest now.

Doppelganger said...

Tinkerbell,

If it makes you feel any better, I have been reading both sites for the last few days and I have never seen your 'name' mentioned once.

However, I made a post on Viv's blog the other day and it was copied and pasted here almost immediately.

Perhaps you are not trying hard enough ; )

Oscar Wilde once said 'There is only one thing worse than being talked about and that is not being talked about'

:0)

Rosiepops said...

Hey Tinks

now that is what I like to see a fairy with attitude lol

Well said and each and every word echoed by me.

They are not going to dictate what we can and cannot talk about on here, if they think that they can forget it.

By the way, did you read the article today? I hadn't seen it before and I think it gives the best account of what Kate and Gerry have had to put up with that I have so far read.

I have long since been of the opinion that as soon as Kate and Gerry can talk about and give their side of events, that a lot of this animosity will simply disappear.
The ill feeling is being fed by the evil minds of those that seem to be praying for the McCann's to be guilty and they make things up and twist and distort the truth and these people know who they are too, just one word to say to them *Karma*
So I look forward to the day when Kate and Gerry will be free to tell us their side and until that day they can count on my support.

I think a lot of this nonsense has been deliberately leaked to the press by the infamous PJ sources, done deliberately to malign the McCann's.
It appears to me that the PJ do not want the McCann's to be able to put their side of the story and this is why they are being kept arguidos to keep them quiet.

If I were them I would make that trip to Portugal that they have said they will make on or around the 18th March and if they will not release them from arguido status, I would talk anyway and be damned.

Let them take them to court, because the PJ have not kept their own secrecy laws anyway.

And don't forget it transpires that the PJ did NOT even have to to adhere to these secrecy laws if they did not want to, they chose to though. It seems they can use or misuse these laws as they seem fit. One word for them too..Karma.

Meanwhile I will still continue to hope and pray that Madeleine and now Mari will be found and returned home to their families.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Thanks Dopple, give it time!

I'm not under any illusions :-)

Mum21 said...

Tinkerbell. My sentiments entirely. Anyone can read the name of this blog...it describes our views 100%. If anyone wants to discuss these views..then fine. If they just want to abuse and incite arguments..then there is no place here for them

Anonymous said...

Rosiepops
Sorry for butting but i think i read somewhere that Gerry&Kate are taking the twins to Donegal for easter,so i dout if the will be going to portugal.

SassyP said...

Tinks

I was - we had a five-minute break. Now I am at home with about 3 tonnes of correcting to do for tomorrow.

JANEGT said...

good late afternoon everyone

what a day!!! gales, rain, dark, wet...ha ha ha so what's new...

I didn't know Rosiepops that the PJ could have any discretion atall re the archaic secrecy laws? That's new to me. Makes it worse.

Diane posted early today that the cadaver dog/s were taken to a known burial place of a woman and they failed to identify it - Was it Mark, Laz or Doby who said this before?? Appears they were right on that one too.

The gagging of the McCanns is terrible. This on top of the agony of a missing child and being forced to be seen coping with day to day dealings for the sake of Amelie and Sean must be so hard for them. On top of this gagging to deliberately lea to press their own ageda is cruelty. Plain and simple cruelty.

I read the PJ are due here 'within 10 days' to interview 3 of tjehe group. Roll on. Let's get this moving forwards at long long last.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Rosie, I lost my total respect for the PJ when they gagged the McCanns and then subjected them to the most vicious of smear campaigns imaginable. Orchestrated by you know who!

From day one this investigation has been a catalogue of errors and blunders. I hope they learn from their mistakes and quickly because for whatever agenda, they have chosen to allow a child abductor to go free. What message is this being sent out to the scum that prey on these little children.

JANEGT said...

hi tinkrbell or fwa
fairy with attitude...like it

I agree and posted that - so we are certainly sharing that view. Also as you sa the person's who took Madeleine must be laughing up their sleeves at the incompetence and feel very gratified by the press coverage with no comeback from the victims, ie Madeleine and the MCCANNS.

Doppelganger said...

As it is so quiet here, I thought I would comment on an earlier post about the '3 or 4 people' who post on Viv's blog.

I thought I would do a quick 'head count' for you guys and came up with the following list - in no particular order and not including myself or Viv of course.

2345
LGC
Wizard
Muldoon
Zodiac
Dolores
Hope4truth
Hope4you
Dylan
Lizzy
ROTB
Ironside
Docmac
Niki
Alsabella
Claudia
Athena
Atardi
Poppyp
Dogmad
Leigh
Irina

And these are all separate people.

Plus many others who just drop in and comment occasionally.

Perhaps Assassin would give a list of the 20 different ID's he/she boasted about using on the DE website for us later.

That would make a really interesting read.

JANEGT said...

off topic

Tinkerbell43 said...

Hi Jane,

Can you imagine being innocent, your child is missing and the very people you have relied on to help have made you a suspect in her death. This means not only does it confirm to them, no-one is looking for their daughter but they are neither given any feedback as to how the enquiry is going. They are in turn gagged from speaking out and subjected to the most incredible of smear campaigns. Can you imagine their anxiety alone, it is inhumane what these poor parents have been subjected to.

Then you hear Ribeiro say the PJ were too hasty in making them Arguido's, it makes me so angry, what kind of answer is that, too hasty, this is peoples lives they are playing with and one life that may well have been found if they hadnt been so incompetent in the first place.

JANEGT said...

tinks

Yes, I agree. I am wondering if this is only the tip of the Iceberg. The thought of this person/s glee at reading the terrible strain the McCanns must be under during the last 10 months sickens everyone wanting justice to be seen to be done and fairly.

Horrendous nightmare.

JANEGT said...

Did Doby ever manage to get free of his googlehold and log in? He seems to have been tryhing for a while....?

Anyuone know?

I know most popl will be off cooking/serving/eating dinner, so will check back soon to see.....

Off to cook . . .

See you soon.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Dopple, thanks for your concern, but it really isnt necessary. I'm sure your time can be well spent somewhere else.

If the number of IDs Assasin has will make an interesting read then I will try to remember to tell Assasin of your enquiry and maybe she wil pop over and enlighten you.

Bye for now.

Rosiepops said...

Well, I think it was Tinks that sent me a report that said the PJ did not have to keep to these secrecy laws if they did not want to, they chose to and them chose to leak and to malign these parents in the worse way possible.

I had hope that when Tubby went his replacement Paulo Rebelo was going to go over everything and I don't think they have done anything of the kind, I also remember reading somewhere that Paulo Rebelo is a good friend of Goncalo Amaral's (Tubby's) and I don't know that this was a good choice putting him in charge after Gonctub's departure.
It is almost as if the Portuguese authorities are playing some kind of good cop bad cop routine!

I think they put this man in charge because of his record, but there was never going to be any change of direction in this investigation, it was always going to keep blaming the parents, because to turn around now would bring derision on Portugal. but what Portugal doesn't realise that this is going to bring derision on the, anyway, no matter what the threats I feel the McCann's will eventually tell their side of events.

Anon don't know where you got that info from but good luck to you.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Hi Rosie, yes it was me, there are two exceptions to the secrecy law, both of which could have been applied in this case.

Rosiepops said...

Doppel

Thanks but we are not that interested, pity they don't actually post very often though, but hey that is for Viv/Felicity/bestrest/onaclearday/etc/etc/etc to sort out, we are really not that bothered.

Don't let us keep keep you bye have a nice life.

Anonymous said...

Mcjustice says

Can I ask a question please. This site is about Justice for Madeleine and her family, but are you actually doing anything other than talking about who is at fault etc. This is not meant to be rude, I am just looking for a site where people are prepared to actually do something. Any links to such a site would be appreciated because I believe action speak louder than words. Thank you in anticipation

Tinkerbell43 said...

Mcjustice, thanks for your interest. We are a new Blog that is just finding its feet. I am not aware of any other Blog that actually supports the parents/family aswell as Madeleine so I am unable to direct you I am afraid.

If you are interested in Justice for the Family aswell as Madeleine we would be interested to hear any ideas and views you may have.

Sorry I cant be of any further assistance.

Rosiepops said...

Tinks I have to put this post again because I think it is excellent.

I must also add that of course it is not only Portugal and the UK that is witnessing this appalling speculation and the attempted assassination of these two people on absolutely no evidence, it is the rest of the world too.

I also think that in view of how badly Portugal has conducted this case, they should be made to answer to the EU and should be forced to get their house in order, they need a root and branch review of their archaic laws and that secrecy law, which has been used and abused to malign people should be forced out. This is not what I want to see as a European citizen.
If we are forced to be in the EU and to adopt laws we would rather not, then how come Portugal is allowed to get away with this abominable law? If we are goingt o have the EU then let it be run propery and get these countries which are lagging behind in some kind of yesteryear to fully comply.

Anonymous said...

Mcjustice

Tinkerbell - Thank you for your kind reply. I am not really the sort of person to keep talking about something. Maybe if I cannot find what I am looking for I will start something myself inviting those who are prepared to actually do something to join me. Thank you once again, best regards and Bye.

Rosiepops said...

lol Tinks of course the post is this one and not mine.

Hi Jane,

Can you imagine being innocent, your child is missing and the very people you have relied on to help have made you a suspect in her death. This means not only does it confirm to them, no-one is looking for their daughter but they are neither given any feedback as to how the enquiry is going. They are in turn gagged from speaking out and subjected to the most incredible of smear campaigns. Can you imagine their anxiety alone, it is inhumane what these poor parents have been subjected to.

Then you hear Ribeiro say the PJ were too hasty in making them Arguido's, it makes me so angry, what kind of answer is that, too hasty, this is peoples lives they are playing with and one life that may well have been found if they hadnt been so incompetent in the first place.

29 February 2008 17:50

Tinkerbell43 said...

Mcjustice, you are most welcome.

We do intend to be a proactive Blog but at the moment we are trying not to run before we can walk.

Best of luck.

Rosiepops said...

Mcjustice

Well in a way we are doing something to help, hopefully we are putting the other side to the heavily biased lies and innuendos that have bee allowed to prevail in the media.

If there is any pro active stance you would like to see happen why not discuss it with us and who knows maybe we will be able to do something. A few of us have already been pro active in a couple of things which we have been asked not to speak about, so who knows? One thing is for certain if we don't try will not get anything done.

Anyway good luck in your pursuits and I hope you find what you are looking for.

assasin said...

If McJustice is serious, I will take up and on any serious idea they might have to become proactive on behalf of the mccanns in my place. I am not touching wiht a barge pole though unless it is 100% in support of ALL mccanns.

We dont have our actual site back up and running yet, just the forum but we cover good causes and we do have our madeleine stuff set up to start going again over the weekends.

I'm particularly interested in anything which deals with that madeleine foundation. I'm disgusted that after suggesting our laws needed updating it was turned into an anti mccann campagain rather than something good.

So Mcjustice, do run by everyone what it is you want to do? :-)

Rosiepops said...

Doppel

you said:

"Perhaps Assassin would give a list of the 20 different ID's he/she boasted about using on the DE website for us later."

I don't know why you are trying to malign Assasin, even on the DX she was open and honest enough to admit what she was doing and why she was doing it. We know all about Assasin as she has told us.

Wish the same could have been said for all the antis and their multiple ID's, including yourself. Note on here the same pros are posting, no multiple IDs like viv/felicityetc zephyr/Zodiac/etc and Alsabelia with all of ther IDs including the 6 we actually know about and that is not even mentioning notdoc's IDs.

Just leave us be and dont worry about us we will be fine thanks, we will look after our own and we are not doing too badly for a new blog and there are some more psoters to come on who are on holiday at the moment.

As I said see you and enjoy your blogging.

Doppelganger said...

Rosiepops

If you are not that bothered then why did you mention it in the first place and why did you feel the need to respond to my post, no one else did.

But as someone else said, this is all off topic - so here's some on topic information for you.

The letters have been sent and received.

The British Government can delay the process no longer but have instructed the media not to report the letters to avoid embarrassment.

The PJ are coming, 'friends' of the McCann's will be questioned almost certainly followed by the McCann's themselves.

And if you don't believe the media in this country control what the public are allowed to know just think about the fact that Prince Harry has been in Afganistan since Christmas - the media all knew - but we didn't.

By the way, just read the the blog and see that you are just cutting and pasting your own and other people’s comments to make it look like you’re getting lots of posts.

Oh - and do you know who SadTroll is - cos I think you do ;)

Going now because I really don’t think it is fair of me to wind you up and I genuinely don’t want to upset Tinkerbell or Mandz if she is reading.

Nite, nite.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Hi Assasin, good to see you, hope you are well.

There is a request for you from Doppleganger, see post at 17:45.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Rosie, here's a comment from the DE

"Dont Rise to it".

assasin said...

Thankyou for message. I shall just scroll up and find the posting.

I'm p-resuming it is related to your reply to doppleganger Rosie. So thankyou.

JANEGT said...

rosiepops, tinks aka fwa, sassy, et al

yes we did post earlier that they were 'expected' within 10 days --yet again.
Will they ie the PJ appear this time? Hopefully so we can progress and start this investigation off after 10 stagnant boring ineffective months. No gagging, no stalling, just justice starting after nearly a year to be SEEN to be done.

GOOD.

BRING IT ON.

JANEGT said...

OOOPS SORRY
SHOULD i SIGN a register SOMEWHERE?

It's just after a list, maybe I should sign in but we only have one name....but doesn't it make registers look long and busy when so many are listed.

It's nice to be on a blog that takes people on trust, and are welcome, until it is shown clearly there is a not even hidden agenda.

Some of the lively, at times witty debate here has been most informative and new issues have been raised that have not been discussed before which is most refreshing. A new look at previous issues can bring out different slants in light of now known information too.

I know this blog has grown very rapidly, very quickly, because we do invite genuine posts to peruse.

assasin said...

"Perhaps Assassin would give a list of the 20 different ID's he/she boasted about using on the DE website for us later.

"

You are probably more aware of the ID list than I am. That said because each and every time I came back in with another user name after being banned I made clear it is was me and whilst i was debating points regarding alleged discrepencies from or by the McCanns, you were always the first to recognise me and give a warm welcome weren't you. Thankyou for that.

Your welcome more turned to silent fear once I was happy all discrepencies, whether from rumour, spin or absolute facts surrounding the case had been combusted to my satisfaction and therefore am 100% positive the McCanns are 100% innocent.

Bans, because of hit report button campaigns run from other websites because apparently that is what they do when the cannot respond to a debate point.

Thankfully, I am fully aware of all the back door private messaging that took place on that count:-)

The only ones i remember. since most names soon as someone recognised it was me were given the get user banned treatments were muse, wolverine, assassin, mcspin and barabus.

If you remember any more yourself, please do enlighten me.

However, as someone as already said, i have not once posted anywhere without making clear who i am. Posts of mine on the madeleine subject have also only ever been in my own site, the DX, one to Alsabella. Nowhere else.

Best Wishes.

I will ensure anyone over here be that online or offline with whatever madness they might think up against the McCanns shall be counterchallenged all the way - so you might need those regards:-):-):-) No, that is not a threat either before you twist my words, just a statement of fact.

JANEGT said...

I thought I had read all posts when I popped on at quick lunch, but see Doby won against Google...good. I saw Mum21's posts but it did not register, or I missed the fact that Doby was here.

Didn't you say a lot more were coming along too? good to know.

Mandz said...

Hi All!

Anything new....?
Are the letters "actually" here?

Doppelganger said...

Jane,

Sorry to tell you this but I think you are seriously 'off message'. The line is the letters don't exist and the PJ are NOT coming.

The last thing the McCann's or their friends want is to be questioned by the PJ.

By the way I'm not really sure why you 'fell out' with me a few weeks back but if I upset or offended you , I apologise.

I do sometimes tease people, but only if I think they can take it - perhaps I got you wrong?

Anyway really got to go now. Probably won't be back, as this is 'your' site and I think it is probably better if we all just ignore each other.

Bye, bye Rosiepops

Bye, bye Tinkerbell

And please give my regards to Mandz as she seemed a bit upset earlier.

:0)

Tinkerbell43 said...

Just popping off for tea, see you all in about an hour.

assasin said...

Bye tinks

JANEGT said...

hi again assasin

how are 'you' today? or should I say 'how are you all'? ha ha ha

Yes, you have laughed at your id's I know but with no hidden ageda unlike some others with multi id's... what I enjoy is that we fought before in whatever name, doesn't matter, irrelevant, but we are walking similar path now.

That is what debate should be about. good.

I read all your posts last night. agreed with most of it, apart from the 'vulnerability' part slightly in that I say everyone is vulnerable all the time. That was the only slight issue but you certainly make us think with your posts a lot.

I don't know if you saw a post I made a few days' ago re the fact I was told all petitions re Madeleine had vanished. The one to Gordon Brown was mentioned amongst others.

What do you feel about this?

ps

if I suddenly disappear, not being rude but the chicken will need looked at soon.... smells from oven driving me nuts.

I laughed at how many of us were on here and watching masterchef final...hece the wobbly keyboarding by us all around 8 pm ha ha ha. I thought the young girl would win and was most surprised James did. They were all brilliant though.

o my chicken is going to look so so so sad. Hmmmm.

Mandz said...

Doppleganger,

I am not upset far from it!

Have a good evening & good bye.
Mandz

assasin said...

Hi Jane,
I'm fine Thankyou just very busy as usual lol. Hope you are well too.

Yes, I think I've had run ins with almost everyone in here in the past. I agree with you. To me debate is about a search for truth, not a win or lose situation. This is much more than a debate too, even though debate is taking place it is about peoples lives and a missing girl that needs to be found so no matter what side the goal should always be finding Madeleine, bringing to justice the culprits [that part we cant do] and im strenously of the belief that the biggest thing the public can do is defend and support the McCann family not just because of their plight, but equally because of any potential miscarriage of justice and also to bring an end to this global hatred and bullying that is being carried out by some.

Yes, masterchef. I got the winner I wanted, but id have gladly ate it all;-);-);-)

The petitions, i know nothing about this, could someone enlighten with the story on that if they have time please?

Take care

JANEGT said...

doppelganger, dad23, hi there again

nice to spar with you on a different site.

Yes, I cana take it.

What does 'offline ' mean as it is reported widely in ou press within 10 days the PJ are coming to question 3 named of the tapas 9.....I asked when will it happen/will they actually arrive at last....

Where is any problem in that? It is online today if you want to read the press updates.

I can 'take it' as you asked or suggested you thought before.....but I cannot stand 2 faced people who misread deliberately any posters thoughts, copy and paste PART of it, then yell don't copy and paste my posts, when thy have done it and also have a support name to post also be it toys, bears, people, or rats or whatever who knows, and who cares

I believe in upfront debate, not deliberate goading, tittle tattle elsewhere and bleating about not being understood when ''they '' - these posters - actually are transparent....

Now, DG23 glad you are here, face to face so to speak so I can say my piece directly to you. I have no problems with that at all. If you 'see' Big L tell him ''cybernag'' was asking if he is still winning and sends regards. Not a multi ID just a joke you understand. Hope he is....

Mandz said...

assasin!

Well said we need to start showing support to this heartbroken couple. Maddie must be found.

Mandz said...

Doppleganger (Dad!)

The penny just dropped!! Ha! Nice to see you hope all well! Hope you're happy in your new blog but change your name back! I'm sad you have chosen to go to the dark side!

assasin said...

Agree Mandz. Maybe those with only rage to throw would be better placed out looking than attempting to dispel, yet fuelling their own anger on a keyboard;-)

Mandz said...

Very good point Assasin + much healthier for them!

I'm up for anything we can do?

Mandz said...

Going off for a glass of red wine!

JANEGT said...

chicken calling gatta go now

back after dinner

;o))

Teyman said...

Another Kipling for me

Anonymous said...

Hi all
I followed all the posts on the DE, and now i read the posts on everyones blogs. I know that viv's and alsabella's blogs don't do the Mccanns any favours by accusing them day in day out, but i would like to ask you if you think your blog is a positive thing for the Mccanns. I would think that the Mccanns would probably like all the blogs to disappear and be left to look for their daughter. At the moment everyone is just having a go at each other from different sites and i cant see how any of this is helping the Mccanns. What would your stance be if the Mccanns said to you "look enough is enough, please let all this end". As long as there are antis accusing and pros defending and dragging out old articles because there is nothing else to go on, the Mccanns are suffering. Another question i have is would you discontinue your blog if the other sites discontinued theirs because you are all just bouncing off each other and it seems to be going nowhere. Thank you

Teyman said...

Perhaps 4

archer said...

Good evening all.

Jojam I haven't read that news item before. Why is it that truly compassionate and supportive pieces aren't generally getting into the papers ?

Who is Jane Hill?

Teyman said...

I don't think Anon that the Mccanns worry to much about what's said on blogs. I wouldn't care a monkeys what people said if I was innocent and had lost a lovely child like Madeleine

Teyman said...

I don't think Anon that the Mccanns worry to much about what's said on blogs. I wouldn't care a monkeys what people said if I was innocent and had lost a lovely child like Madeleine

Anonymous said...

teyman
The Mccanns do find out what has been written in blogs. Why do you think some forums have been closed down.

Mum21 said...

Anonymous. I can only answer for myself and not for anyone elae on here.
Firstly if the McCann's asked me to stop commenting on this or any other blog about them...I would glady agree.

Secondly it would matter not to me if other blogs ceased to exist. Because my only interest is defending their right to innocence until proven guilty. So I would continue to post here.

assasin said...

Anon,
I agree with you, pro and anti blogs are counterproductive.

I'm doing something different, but thats besides the point.

Blogs such as this one have to stay to me though otherwise there is only an anti voice.

if anti blogs go, these still have to stay otherwise the awareness of madeleine goes down too - after all the media itself is losing interest all the time....

If these blogs go - the mccanns are crucified.....

Anonymous said...

teyman
sorry forgot to add that if the Mccanns are not so bothered about what people say on blogs what is your need to defend them. I am not attacking you ,i am just interested.

Teyman said...

The Mccanns would truly have to be fools to worry about things said on the internet. It's alright to send an email on but when you think of the banal rantings posted it shouldn't be taken to seriously imao

assasin said...

Of course the McCanns are affected by what is in blogs and being said all over the place.

As much as they could think of trying to ignore it they wont be able to.

Their children are going to be raised and hit with all the nonsense and bitterness spurned by adults by the children of those adults throughout their entire lives.

The bad mouthing antis are guilty of child abuse because they are abusing the identity and the future of the twins as well as Madeleine.

You don't ignore people abusing your children - do you?

Anonymous said...

Assasin
Yes they must be deeply hurt with what is written in blogs and one of the reasons i asked my questions was so people could stop for a minute and think what it is doing to them

Teyman said...

I'm not defending anyone Anon. I looked in here to continue to understand people's oppinions on the Madeleine case. As far as I'm concerned a little girl went missing 3 May 2007. She was left to look after herself and two siblings by her parents. An outrage in my opinion. And parents should have faced charges of neglect. I believe Madeleine was killed that night.

Teyman said...

Anon/Ass Would you really lose sleep if someone posted on a blog that Ass or Anon were this or that?

Doppelganger said...

Assassin

Not wishing to start an argument, but if you want to see an example of someone taking their rage out on a keyboard try reading SadTrolls site.

Also I want to tell you that I found your reference to Madeleine as A1 paedophile perfect the other night pretty distasteful to say the least. I can now see why the DE banned you 20 times.

The media are not losing interest in this case. They have realised they made a big mistake and are now hoping the public will forget about this before they all turn on the McCann’s like a pack of hyenas.

Many months ago I said that this case was nothing to do with Madeleine, it was a battle for public opinion, because the McCann’s realised that if they lost the PR battle their friends in high places would abandon them to their fate.

Your statement that

If these blogs go - the mccanns are crucified.....

Shows that you agree with this analysis.

The thing is, if they were innocent there would be no evidence against them and public opinion would not matter, so what you seem to be implying is that you believe they are in fact guilty.

I think the poster who said that Blogs like this were just damaging the McCann’s was spot on.

If you are genuinely on the McCann’s side I think you should probably do them a favour and think more carefully about what you say in their ‘defence’ because at the moment you are just making them look guilty as Hell.

IMHO.

assasin said...

Anon,
As well as the media fuelling rumourmongering etc...

The McCanns were and are vulnerable because they naturally and rightfully wanted a very high profile campaign to find Madeleine. That, unfortunately unleashed a massive monster that very quickly became out of and beyond their control and has remained so.

Clarence Mitchell stepping in has not been able to quell that, or rather those within that are not there to support Madeleine's plight but for other motives but he has been effective on some fronts, and even on the fronts he cannot fully protect the McCanns from his presence allows Kate and Gerry to stay one step back and he has correctly voice that much on the internet is lunacy and debated that it is Entertainment for many. Both statements imo, are true of many people.

If a statement came they want all to stop talking about, im sure all of us that want to support would immediately shut up.

However, would the antis have that same respect?

It is sadly a cost in this World that if you want to campaign or fight for anything regarding justice you had better be prepared to make a very courageous walk indeed. Some us can make active choices before we start on such walks.

Unfortunately, the McCanns did not have the option of choice?

They have to keep the case high profile, in order to continue a fund and a search [and heaven forbid cover a legal defence] if they dont keep it high profile people WILL stop looking. Madeleine will be forgotten in an ACTIVE sense, but not in others.

They want to find Madeleine - sadly the cost of that on one count is people who refuse to think, have no conscience or refuse to listen to their conscience.

Maybe, the more they are reminded to think, the more people - will?

Anonymous said...

teyman
If you are innocent it must be terrible to be constantly accused. Also it is not about if they worry about "someone" writing on blogs about them, its people from nearly every country in the world if their profiles are true.

JANEGT said...

The McCanns used all media to publicise the missing Madeleine. This in itself generated/es interest via those self same media, and like their campaign, grew in gigantic leaps and bounds. Some good, some not so.

As soon as the never before seen Internet, TV and Press campaign was launched they knew the consequences and risks of that.

We are the positive side of the coin the other blogs are the negative side of it.

If the McCanns asked me to stop, I would consider it, but right now, I would not - as Madeleine has not yet been found so my answer would be NOT YET - as you started this ball rolling, and it has not yet stopped, so no. I would be letting Madeleine down. ''It is after all about her, not you'' I would respectfully say.

We did not ask for this level of help being requested, so this is what the McCanns would expect up to a degree. Not the intense abuse and vitriol , no , but to a degree they invited it.

So poster, to answer your question:-

Would I if McCanns requested me to stop would I?

NO NOT YET

until we have JUSTICE FOR MADELEINE or she is found.

Not to, imho would be to fail her which is what this is all about.

What is your view to the question you posed yourself????? I would like to know. These blogs are only as one sided as the posts received and the manner in which they are posted.

We do not have control over that, any more than the McCanns over their huge unprecedented publicity campaign to find their daughter.

As they would say, no stone unturned. So no, this lady (me)or stone is not for turning. I for once, disagree with Mum21 which is very very rare indeed. I can see were she is coming from though.

Doby said...

Good evening One and all (too numerous to mention indivually)Read your article Jojam regards the McCanns, very interesting insight into their sad lives.
And I'm so pleased you noticed my presence Janegt, would hate to be invisible! Which reminds me of the man who went into the doctors.The doctor asked, what's your problem and the man answered "Everybody seems to ignore me!" and the doctor called out, "Next please!"
Go on, say its an old joke and you've hear it many times before!..
OK, then I'll try this one,a GP asks a patient, "what's your problem?" and the man says "it's my memory doctor, can't remember anything!" The doctor asks "so how long have you been like that?" and the man answered "LIKE WHAT?" OK, so you've heard that one as well...

elaine said...

Hello everybody, good evening and to Doby ... was it you that asked me about the Z4? So what is new ... letters here or not, exist or not..? No Madeleine, Mari, or any of the other poor little souls?

Looked through some of the posts ... if the McCanns asked people to support them by not blogging I am sure every pro would do that ... it would drive antis to a frenzy and they would post twice as much ... or each of their identities would post twice as much I guess.

Anonymous said...

janegt

I have not been an active poster so I can't really answer the question I posed. I think if I was a regular poster and was asked by the Mccanns to stop, I would consider the twins and probably agree.

Teyman said...

What's always struck me very odd about this case is the way the Mccanns stood up to losing their lovely little girl. I and I think most parents would find it hard to stand up for a few days or function properly. But Gerry goes a jogging and anyone for tennis as though nothings happened. And then the Grand Tour of Europe.

JANEGT said...

doby omg

did you degoogle yourself? I was going to say good. Then I read your awful jokes. Pity google let you go if that's the best you can do.

;o)))

Mum21 said...

Doppelganger.. Nice to see you back so soon. You do make me laugh because you constantly imply you are off...then back you come.
It must be more interesting here than the other two blogs. It must be our hypnotic personalities. :-)

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Mum21 said...

Teyman. I see you have two blogs of your own. Do you get many hits on them?

JANEGT said...

anon

re your question you have just thought about now

It is precisely because of the twins I would NOT stop. You cannot stop a snowball rolling down a hill as they well knew, hoping this would bring Madeleine back. She isn't. So No I would not stop. That is why the ball started in the first place.

Breathe in

no changed my mind...hold it...just stop there.......

yeah yeah yeah
doesn't work that way.
Their high risk campaign is now just that, a risk in a way, but Madeleine is what the media campaign is about NOT THE MCCANNS. We have not found her. The McCanns are innocent until proven guilty. They are arguidos not charged, not able to speak, so no. I would not stop FOR the twins and Kate and Gerry's sakes, but particularly for that Forgotten aspect of the blogs at times
=======MADELEINE========

Doppelganger said...

Jane

The difference is you want to know the truth whatever it may be.

Other people don't want to know the truth because they are very afraid of what the truth might actually turn out to be. People like this would very happily settle for the case to be dropped and Madeleine's fate to remain a mystery forever.

Understanding this is essential to making any sense of what is going on in this case I believe.

By the way, I couldn't find any recent reference to the rogatory letters on google, but I will have another look.

Perhaps speak to you in another place sometime in the future.

Bye, Again!

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
assasin said...

Doppleganger,

in the context it was written there was nothing derogatory about the A1 comment i made. It was made in relation to what attracts your average paedophile when it is children of that age they are targetting.

POTENTIAL evidence is often abundant against many in a criminal investigation. It is meaningless until it becomes a case - and a case that can stand up in court at that. Not applicable in this case against the McCanns.

Teyman.

I laugh at what is posted about me.

I dont laugh at what is posted about the McCanns. It is not funny at all.

Would i lose sleep?

I have done:-) My own children have been on the end of such behaviours from a very minor few and their children for years.

If I didnt anguish about what a couple of idiotic families round here constantly attack them with, i wouldnt be a mother:-)

That's in the simple case of a child who died of natural cause. I dread to think what these twins will go through after this given the vast difference.

There is a vast difference between being called names on the internet and building a future through vile words of adults that will harm two children in the future - dont you think?

Teyman said...

I don't think I'll ever be able to degoogle myself. They know everything about me down to my penchant for Kiplings lemon and almond slices. I know this cos I keep getting their adverts

Mandz said...

Hi worth a wee read!

Posted on Friday, September 7, 2007
I wasn’t going to write about this. I just wasn’t because it doesn’t bear thinking about, but in the last few days the whole thing has become insane, and you know what’s really pissing me off? All the self-righteous experts over here, nudging and winking, passing judgement on the McCanns, with absolutely no information whatever to go on. Not that ignorance ever stopped a lynch-mob.

How do I know they have no information? Because the Portuguese police seem to have no information either. What’s going on over there in Portugal? I can’t figure it out. Do you know what’s going on, and if so, would you mind telling me?

What are the police saying? That Kate McCann killed the little girl?

Oh right. So they were out at dinner, when suddenly Gerry McCann, slaps his forehead. Shit! I forgot to murder the child before we went out.

Don’t worry, Love, soothes Kate. I’ll nip back to the apartment now and do her in while you’re finishing your dinner.

I feel such a fool, says Gerry.

Don’t worry about it, chuckles Kate. I’ll be back in a jiffy.

What?

Scenario One: The child was abducted. This has not been ruled out.

Scenario Two: The child was accidentally killed in the apartment. OK. Why would they even try to hide it? Why would they go through this charade of having dinner with their friends?

Scenario Three: The child was murdered. by the McCanns.That makes no sense at all to me. Parents take their three children on a family holiday to a popular Algarve resort, but change their mind and murder one of them.

The cameras of the entire world have been pointed at these people since the child went missing. I find it very hard to believe that anyone could so thoroughly dispose of a body in such a short time that the following gigantic search failed to find it.

The latest innuendo concerns an allegation that traces of blood were found in a car the McCanns hired twenty five days after the little girl disappeared. Oh well there you have it then. They’re guilty!

Eh, no. Not quite.

First, we don’t know how the samples were collected, or how the chain of evidence was protected. We also don’t know whether the parents’ clothing was already contaminated with blood from some innocuous nosebleed or the like. And finally, Portimao is not a big place. It is not beyond the bounds of coincidence that the McCanns might have hired a car previously used by an abductor. It would be an appalling irony if this turned out to be true, but it’s far from impossible.

However, this is straying dangerously close to rigorous thinking and, of course, logic is the last thing that scandal-mongers and finger-pointers want, because it spoils their fun.

I don’t know if the McCanns killed their child. I hope they didn’t but I don’t know yet. Just like the self-righteous finger-pointers don’t know while they beat their breasts and tut-tut at the McCanns for being bad parents.

It must be great to be perfect.

Teyman said...

Mum21 www.whizzg2.blogspot.com I don't think has had any hits yet. Only a couple of testings from me about TOE THEORY and the like. I'm really interested in research of all kinds.

Doppelganger said...

Mum21,

The reason I keep going and returning is because while I am typing my 'last post' other people post to me and I don't want to appear rude by ignoring them. As has just happened.

So if anyone else has addressed a post to me in the last ten minutes, I am not deliberately ignoring you, I just really have to go.

Bye.

elaine said...

hiya Mandz, yes that is a good, if old post. Same as when the McCanns went out to dinner, I doubt very much they said oh hun let's not bother locking the door with a bit of luck somebody will take these wretched kids!! 89 steps to the restaurant .. and they were sitting outside, because Gerry's voice could be heard from the patios - they could see the apartment .. it didn't look very far and I don't think they thought about any dangers. Hindsight is always 20 20 vision

Mandz said...

Hi Elaine,
Yes Hindsight is a great thing!

JANEGT said...

MANDZ

WHO POSTED THE

'IT MUST BE GOOD TO BE PERFECT' ENDING POST PLEASE?

ANON?

omg THERE ARE MORE ANONS ON THE INTERNET THAN GOOGLE ID'S........

DOBY TEYMAN - GOOGLE HAVE A LOT TO ANSWER FOR HAVEN'T THEY?

assasin said...

Dad
i posted to you in last 10 mins but i promise not to call you rude lol.

JANEGT said...

MANDZ, ELAINE, HI

HINDHA- HA- HA-SIGHT

IF I HAD IT, I WOULD NOT BE HERE NOW TEN MONTHS ON.....

WOULD ANY OF US??

but this is not about Madeleine only as if this succeeds, then other missing/abused children will benefit from knowledge gained from this. We don't know the ending yet.

Put it this way, if some b*s*ard pulled out thelast page in my book....

I'd punch their lights out.

Teyman said...

To all Sadly the fact of the matter is simply if the Mccanns had not left their three children home alone this blogspot wouldn't exist And Madeleine would be happy little schoolgirl

Mandz said...

Jane,

I posted it!

Tinkerbell43 said...

Exactly Elaine, the last thing on their mind was the little girl they left safely sleeping in her bed would not be there upon their return.

I do not buy the Theory that Kate accidently killed her daughter and successfully hid her body for 25 days. I cannot believe having seen her daughter die, she composedly found a hiding place for her little girls corpse and then calmly went out for dinner with friends. Dont buy it one iota!

Rosiepops said...

Hi all

How goes it tonight?

Anon,

If we ceased to exist then the blogs that exist solely to slate the McCann's will go on and on and believe me they would not stop, so while they are there we will be here to make certain the other side of this sad event gets put and that questions are asked of the PJ.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Hey Mandz,

Is that you, really you ? bloody hell we're on at the sametime!

Tinkerbell43 said...

Teyman, hello you :0) sadly I think if it wasnt the McCs it would have been some other unsuspecting family. I'm in no doubt there was a ring operating in this area.

Mandz said...

We're there for the McCanns
Ulrika Jonsson:

HOW shallow and cynical do you have to be to attack a couple who have been suffering all the torments of the damned for four weeks with no end in sight?
How callous do you have to be to tell a family who have lost a precious, tiny daughter to shut up, go home and spend time with the children they have left?
I can't decide which I find more upsetting—the continued ordeal of Kate and Gerry McCann or the cruelty demonstrated by some commentators who seem to think their suffering should be done in private.
Yes, their refusal to give up on little Maddie is truly awful to watch.
Yes, the strain of endless interviews, photocalls and travel is undoubtedly taking its toll.
The pain is there for all to see...etched on the face of Kate McCann as she fights to hold her nightmares at bay. We look at the television or the paper and we DO want to turn away.
Chill
But if we have a shred of humanity, we don't—because it could be our nightmare, our hunt for an answer, OUR CHILD.
The plight of this missing tot has haunted my thoughts and my dreams, maybe because I have a little girl with the same cheeky, toddler smile.
This case sent a chill through me when I thought about the downstairs bedroom where my kids sleep at our Swedish house— with the windows open in summer. We've all examined our behaviour and thanked God it's not us frantically casting around for ways to keep the world's attention on our terrible loss.
With that in mind, I can only look on in awe as these two private people steel themselves to another day in the spotlight...and all for Maddie.
Prayer
Their daily appearances—cuddling their twins, guiding each other by hand and by heart, or receiving the Pope's blessing—have ensured this amazing couple have become a part of us all.
Kate and Gerry are now OUR family and we are theirs. Maddie is my daughter and she's yours too.
Every morning my six-year-old tells me she said a prayer for Maddie the night before. Perhaps your children do the same?

So I hope the McCanns will ignore the spiteful sniping of a few heartless—and probably childless— cynics and realise they must continue to keep this hunt at the forefront of people's minds. When this is all over they need to know that whatever the outcome— and pray God it's the one that we all hope for—they did everything they possibly could.
The thought that this story will slowly fade and disappear until we can barely remember Maddie's name fills me with panic.
No matter where this journey ends, if Gerry and Kate can find the courage to be strong for their daughter then we must be strong for them.
No matter how long it takes, we are counting the days to her return.
We are in it for the long haul. Whatever it takes.

Mandz said...

Tinks..it's the one and only....Mandz!!!

Good to be on "same time" but I will be going off in the next 5min!!

Doppelganger said...

Assasin

‘in the context it was written there was nothing derogatory about the A1 comment i made. It was made in relation to what attracts your average paedophile when it is children of that age they are targetting.’

I do wonder how you are so sure what attracts ‘your average’ paedophile to any particular child, but what you were implying is that paedophiles prefer to snatch blonde haired, blue eyed, or ‘perfect’ children as you describe them.

Well ALL four year old children are beautiful and need protection and it seems to me that the one thing that REALLY makes a particular child ‘attractive’ to a paedophile is how easy they are to abduct.

And before anyone makes some crass remark about jealousy, my daughter has blonde hair and blue eyes and I think she is perfect, but if she had back hair or sticky out ears or cross eyes I would not think she was any less perfect and not worry about her safety.

As you still appear to have no idea why I found your post so offensive, I am now leaving in disgust – AGAIN – much to Mum21’s, yours and everyone else’s amusement no doubt.

At least I have provided you all with a bit of free entertainment.

Chinadoll said...

Evening Everyone,

Only had a chance to read back a few pages and would like to reply to the anonymous poster who asked a hypothetical question about what we would do if we were asked not to comment/contribute further to this subject - by the McCanns themselves.

My answer to you, anonymous is, get a life.

Isn't that what Portuguese Law is based on - ie not allowed to speak up and voice an opinion?

Shut witnesses up and make them arguidos.

Then, when you have control of the audience, you leak/sell stories to the media and turn a normal couple who are victims in this tragedy, into monsters and feed your filth to all and sundry.

That is not justice or the British style of justice - it is archaic, inhumane and outright wrong.

Actually anyonymous, it is not you who needs to grow up, it is your nation.

Teyman said...

Kate's mum said in her tv interview that she could not believe her daughter would leave children on their own. To me it has always been beyond belief that two surgeons-with all their experience in A&E wards etc when they've seen children burnt to death scalded scarred for life blinded drowned electrocuted etc etc could leave their own children home alone

elaine said...

Teyman .... yes sadly that is a point, if the McCanns had not left Madeleine alone .... but don't you think they know that? How many times they must have said those tragic words 'if only'. Because they made a fateful mistake does that mean it is okay to rant and rave as some have, analysing every single twitch, bruise and ear tug. If you want to be really sickened take a look at Viv's site, where they analysis every movement and discuss how and when and why Madeleine was murdered/or accidentally killed (if they are being kind) by Kate and gerry McCann. If I make a stupid mistake, does that mean I am not deserving of help? The McCanns are no more deliberate child neglectors than any body else ... it seemed safe, it was quiet, it felt like the resort was protected .. I believe them.

assassin said...

Twisting my words again there doppleganger.

I did not and never would say one child was perfect and another not!

i absolutely agree with you ALL children are beautiful. Personally i could not give a flying fig about defects or so called aesthetic imperfections at all. It is what is inside that counts.

I know a lot about various paedophile and abusers minds cos i have vast experience on the subject and work with victims day and day out. I hope than answers your question!

If some realities re paedophile minds are too hot for you to handle, im sorry.

I said she was perfect in relation to the type of some paedohiles minds, absolutely different to what you have just posted, twisted and implied.

I'm disgusted - at your reading skills:-)

Doby said...

To get down to a more serious subject, Madeleines disappearance!We can only go off what we read and most of that is lies and speculation, but this is what I really believe may have happened on that fateful evening.We all know Gerry and Kate tucked their children into bed, and not realizing they were being watched, went over to the Tapas bar for a meal, and perhaps a few drinks, (why not, they were on holiday)They believed their children were safe and well but to be sure had them regularly checked out! As they could see the apartment from where they were seated they felt everything was safe and secure. As things turned out that was not to be the case, they and their children were being watched! It has been suggested an intruder broke into the apartment through a shuttered window easily accessible from the roadside,entered the childrens bedroom and carefully passed 'sleeping' Maddie through the open window to an accomplice waiting with a car outside. As an alternative, she may have been seen being carried from the apartment through the door(now opened from the inside)where she was then taken to the waiting car. It was recently reported by a Taxi driver that he took a child and some adults to some hotel? There may or may not be any truth in that report!It must then be asumed Madeleine was then taken to some sort of 'safe house' and held there until the early hours when she was taken down to the harbour. A couple in a passing car saw a small child being roughly dragged towards the Marina and this they reported to the PJ the following day after hearing of Maddies abduction. It has been stated the PJ did not bother to investigate this reported sighting for the next forty eight hours,at which time several boats are reported to have left the harbour. Had little Madeleine been smuggled on to one of those early departing boats the chances are by that time they would be many miles into open sea. It can only be speculated what happened next, Moroco maybe,the USA, the middle East,the UK even, who knows?

Mandz said...

And as once said before what about people who drink alcohol and fall into bed on a weekend whilst kids are sleeping?? What would happen if one was very unwell? Would they wake up be able to drive the “right away” to the hospital or look out for signs of meningitis?? People do these things because they don’t think the “bad things” will happen.

elaine said...

Teyman .. Kate's Mum did not say that ..... what she actually said was she was surprised at Kate and Gerry. There is a subtle difference, but like the rest of us Mrs. Healey was not there, and could not see it through their eyes. Remember not just the McCanns left the children alone, what made if feel so safe to the rest of them? Do not get me wrong, I wouldnot have left my kids alone and left the building, but SOMETHING must have felt safe .... I just dont think we are able to comprehend what it was

Chinadoll said...

Teyman,

I do not know who the hell you are, but you are not the poster I knew as Whizzg.

If you are someone trying to impersonate Whizzg and you think we will all accept your outbursts, without criticism, you are wrong.

Oh and incidentally, I note your new found eloquence and the unusually long length of your posts (Whizzg could get his point over in line)

Mandz said...

Hi Doby!

Good post however sad.

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