Thursday, 29 May 2008

Gerry Denies Receiving Mystery Texts

Updated:09:02, Thursday May 29, 2008
Sky News

Gerry McCann has denied he received a string of mystery texts the day before his daughter disappeared in the Algarve.

According to court documents issued by Portugal's supreme court, police applied to seize his phone records after learning of the alleged messages. Investigators claim 18 text messages were sent to Mr McCann from an unidentified number around the time Madeleine vanished in Praia da Luz on May 3 last year. It is alleged that 14 messages were texted on May 2 and four more on May 4.

But the McCanns' spokesman Clarence Mitchell said Gerry had no knowledge of the texts and received a handful of calls on his mobile in the days before his daughter disappeared. The documents reveal that public prosecutor Magalhaes e Meneses also sought access to text and phone messages from 10 mobile telephones thought to belong to the McCanns and seven of their friends.

He also asked for a full list of all the calls made between the group from when they arrived in Portugal on April 28 and when the McCanns left on September 9. But the supreme court issued a detailed ruling rejecting the application.

It also revealed that Kate and Gerry McCann could face charges of neglecting their daughter on the night she disappeared. The police inquiry also covers possible abduction, homicide and concealment of a corpse, the documents say.

But Mr Mitchell emphasised the court papers did not mean such a charge would materialise.
He said the couple vigorously denied neglecting Madeleine and welcomed the fact that abduction was also being considered by detectives.

He said: "This court document outlines the areas of the investigation and in no way suggests Kate and Gerry will be facing any such charges. Equally we have heard nothing officially to suggest any such area of investigation is being considered. However, we do note that abduction is apparently one of the parameters and we welcome that because that is what Kate and Gerry and their friends have said and that is what happened. If there is any suggestion of neglect charges being considered that will be vigorously denied because the legal advice that Kate and Gerry have received both in Portugal and Britain is that legally speaking everything they were doing that week was well within the bounds of responsible parenting."

A neglect charge carries a maximum penalty of 10 years. But it is understood for such a charge to stand up the prosecutors would have to show the McCanns intended to neglect Madeleine.

477 comments:

1 – 200 of 477   Newer›   Newest»
4portugal said...

The court document is not a leak. It is an official document covering a verdict by a judge on the ruling that content of messages (text and otherwise) prior to 3 May CANNOT be officially used. A ruling/verdict is no longer covered by secrecy laws, because, obviously if there is a ruling, the case is closed (on that particular matter - phones). In the document it states that the McCanns are arguidos (suspects) for homicide, exposure, abandonment, disposal of a body. Homicide in Portuguese can me manslaughter or homicide. The document does not specify.
Also, it does not say if these are the charges, if any, that will be brought against the McCanns.
However, another point anyone with sense would realize is that the judge would not be ruling on unexistant phone or text messages, making it impossible for them to be used in court. Had they not existed and the Prosecutor requested them, the Judge would have laughed him out of court with a reprimand.

Mandz said...

LEAK LEAK LEAK LEAK LEAK THAT IS ALL WE HAVE SEEN……

Pathetic and disgraceful in my opinion. The “Times” get’s to see this document yet Mr and Mrs McCann have NOT? Now why would that be?
So much focus now on “neglect” anything in my opinion to get at this couple. In my opinion they are trying to take the limelight away from them and sadly MADDIE MCCANN WHO IS STILL MISSING…. What about other people who did the same thing at MW complex? What about the Irish couple whose children got taken into care? Nah just a word used for the McCann’s in Portugal.

Could they at least tell us what THEY are doing to find Maddie and never mind irrelevant (in my opinion) phantom text messages?
Reconstruction for the benefit of who? neglect charges? Oh anything to get them there in my opinion but NEVER do we hear what they are doing to FIND MADDIE MCCANN…WHEN WILL WE TALK AND HEAR ABOUT MADDIE MCCANN????? WHEN??

Kate and Gerry stay away we all see exactly what is going on.

Mandz said...

Secrecy Blah blah blah blah blah....
When will they liaise with the McCann's about their daughter? When will they pass "documents" & info on to the McCann lawyers? Why does everyone and there granny get to see any info leaks first? Does this not seem a tad unfair? Justice secrecyblah…are you havin a laugh..are you havin a laugh…Lol..

4portugal said...

You really are not very bright. It is a public document, since there has been a ruling. I bet that the moment it was released it was in the hands of the McCanns Portuguese lawyers. Dahhhhh use your head. It is not meant just to grow hair.

Rosiepops said...

In which case, answer me this,

Is there a secrecy order or isn't there?

If there is, who does it apply to?

Rosiepops said...

By the way 4 P if you are abusive you will just be deleted. keep it polite.

Rosiepops said...

Hi Mandz,

The Pj haven't even had the decency to be in touch with the McCann's once since they came home from Portugal.

Thee daughter is missing, she was abducted from her bed and these people have not even told them what is being done to find their daughter?

I actually think this is a total breach of the McCann's human rights and an appalling indictment on the attitude of a failing morally bankrupt police force.

Mandz said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Christabel said...

Who was the biggest liar on the DE?
Where did the first mention of 14 texts come from?
Who said Gerry moved a fridge?
Who said Gerry had a spade?
Who said the flooring was parquet tiles?
Who said Gerry never searched?

"Why Alsaliar of course", now how many of these and hundreds more have been true ZERO!
Now what was His/Her agenda behind these lies?

Mandz said...

You are as thick as two short planks. Sit down and let your mouth do the talking (Aslabliar 4P).
I “bet”??
When are “they” going to inform and pass info on to this heartbroken couple re: their child? Why have they NOT passed on the evidence! to the McCann lawyers? What are they doing to find Maddie?

All we have be given is drip fed stories “against” the McCann’s. No wonder their friends and McCann’s DECLINED to go back. They came they left a day early awe…did it not go their way shame... not.

When will they allow the public to see ALL ERRORS? When will they make this document PUBLIC?

When will they be made to stand up and take account of failed actions which experts have commented on? Where is their responsibility and accountability in all of this mess?

Mandz said...

Hi Christabel & Rosie!

Exactly! The one and only...Alsabliar....

Rosiepops said...

Hi Chris,

Yes you are correct, so one has to ask the question who and how many people are Arsabliar?

I believe the PJ were so scared of their monumental cock ups coming out, they they employed several people to post under one name of Arsa and as time wore on and they found they were not winning their filthy propaganda battle, because of annoying people like us, they began to invent more and more persona's to try and make it look like there were more of them than there actually was!

Where was this little girl in all of this? While they were playing their games, was anyone actually looking for Madeleine? Or were they too busy down the end of that blind ally continually bumping their noses as they tried to walk through the wall that fat lardy boy Gonc (Goncalo Amaral) led them to?
Like a load of stupid zombies walking around in little circles.

Rosiepops said...

Hi Mandz

Surely you mean the 20 (or so) and only Arsabliar's? pmsl

Mandz said...

Rosie!
Tee/hee yes I forgot!! She also told us she went to ha wait for it….Yale.!!!!!!!!!!!!!PMSL...


Shove the tourist industry.

Christabel said...

Hi Rosie and Mandz,
on and off at the moment Rosie you know why, so bear with me if you reply!
If you don't buggar ya lol.

Now wasn't it a good idea to keep all those old posts??
Couldn't list all, as it would take about 16 days!

Rosiepops said...

Mandz

She did go to Yale, she went to get a key cut ROTFLMAO

Mandz said...

Going to make tea....sorry 4p I couldn’t be bothered to make it more than it is if you know what I mean...? Nothing exciting as your lies like off on a valentine holiday oh hubbie's a pilot or picking my girls up from ice skating then your girls suddenly changed over night to babies and your alleged cleaner..… bla bla bla...bliar.

Mandz said...

PMSL Rosie! You’re on good form as usual! Just going off for a bit!

Rosiepops said...

Mandz

OMG ROTFPMSL

I forgot all that, exactly, so many of them, they forgot to work out how many children they had or their ages!

Talk about contradictions pmsl

Rosiepops said...

mandz

See you later, me too. I am going for my "evening meal" now pmsl

eff orrrf Dope that is NOT an invite for you to appear.

Rosiepops said...

Christabel,

Oh please do that, pull that story up.!

4portugal said...

Its quite simple. These are two different cases. 1) investigation into the dissapearance of Madeleine McCann - still in investigation stage, therefore, secrecy laws apply. 2) request by the prosecutor's office to use texts and phone content prior to 3 May. The judge in the second proceedings did not allow this. Only information After May 3rd can be used. This second case had a ruling. There was a decision. Case closed - in the 2nd case. Therefore, information, documents, etc related to the 2nd case is available for public consultation. This includes McCann lawyers, journalists, you, me, Joe Shmoe. 1st case is still being investigated, no charges have yet been brought against anyone, but from what we are told, is still under investigation. Therefore, it is still under secrecy laws. When charges are brought about OR if the case is dismissed, then information will be made available to the attorney. When there is the trial, it becomes a matter of public record and anyone can access it.

4portugal said...

If the McCanns are arguidos, which we know they are, they are being investigated for the possibility of having committed crimes. In Portugal, as in the UK, it is not a habit for police to get in touch with suspects and tell them what evidence they have gathered against them.

4portugal said...

Mandz, I don't know anyone with girls or babies that ice skate. Very strange comments you make.

Tinkerbell43 said...

4portugal, could I ask what your source is. My understanding from what I have read is the phone records from prior 3rd May upto Sept.07 were requested and denied.

Rosiepops said...

4 P

Is is also not a habit of the British police to make parents of missing children suspects on no evidence and then keep them dangling for 9 months and not bother to inform them about their missing child.

What are your police force neanderthals or something? have they no respect or decency?

Tinkerbell43 said...

4P, that is why it is common practice for the immediate family to come under suspicion first, so that they can be eliminated. Its not usually done arse about face.

Rosiepops said...

God help poor little Madeleine because it is obvious the Portuguese police are not capable of helping her.

13 months later and the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann is still ongoing?

Going where exactly?

It is 13 months on and the PJ are NO further on.

How many times does it have to be told to you, that if there was any evidence at all they would have been arrested and charged?

Good gracious they still haven't got any evidence to get a judge to grant them permission to see a set of mobile phone records.

When the hell are you lot over there going to wake up?

Your police and useless, completely and utterly useless and that is the nicest thing I can say about them, the worse is I think there could be corruption running rife among them!

Rosiepops said...

Hi Tinks

Exactly so, the immediate family automatically come under suspicion, then they are investigated and ruled out as a matter of urgency.

The Portuguese police have been walking around blindfolded in circles with their arms stuck out in front of them.

Christabel said...

What I believe,

Did they ask for Murat and Malinka's phone records?
Did they get them?

Didn't someone once say they had checked their phone records?
Oh yes it was Alasaliar!!
Why did the judge let them check theirs then?
Funny that innit?

4portugal said...

Tinkerbell, there is an Acordão (ruling) which is public record. I have not checked it, myself, but our reputable newspapers (not 24horas) are all reporting the same thing. The ruling does not allow the information PRIOR to May 3rd to be used. Information requested from after that date, we are told, was allowed. This is being very mentioned because if the information BEFORE May 3rd was allowed, it would start a precedent in our nation.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Bear with me here, I'm just trying to understand, if its to do with privacy, why could they allegedly access Gerrys laptop ?

4portugal said...

Rosiepops, I have no information regarding the investigation so I cannot comment on what the police are doing. What I can say is that if it was totally off the wall, the Prosecutor's would have told them to stuff it and would not have allowed for them to be made arguido. The prosecutor's have subsequently requested and asked the judges for extensions, and have always been granted this. Some information they must have. No prosecutor or judge would risk their necks for nothing. Much less for the PJ.

Rosiepops said...

Hi Christabel

yes that is right, they did say they checked Murat's and Malinka's phone records.

How did they manage to do this?

This is just another leak designed to malign and blacken the McCann's names.

I notice that Arsabliar sorry 4 Portugal, has not addressed the points I made.

Is there a secrecy law here or not? If there is who is governed by it?

Tinkerbell43 said...

4P, so we have conflicting reports. The reputable paper here that is alleging to have seen the court papers, clearly says upto Sept 07 was denied. Unless of course I have misinterpreted.

Rosiepops said...

No 4 P you know perfectly well that they were made arguidos just 8days before the law changed in Portugal, and it was Goncalo Amaral that requested this move.
If he had waited another 8 days then he would have had to produce *evidence* to charge them and they haven't got any and so they would never have been made arguidos.

I think you are being deliberately disingenuous.

4portugal said...

Tinkerbell, to access a laptop, they do not have to ask for specific information from dates PRIOR to May 3rd. They might request access to the computer and if a judge granted it, and they checked, and found evidence of a crime, they could act on it. It is different from requesting phone records/text message records, which are more guarded in our law. When you request a computer, you end up accessing before and after. And even then I am not sure how the e-mails prior to the date would work, if they fall under telecommunications or post laws. It is a bit complex, I do not want to give you the wrong information, but I can tell you that telephone communication records are very very much protected. For example, if you are having a telephone conversation with me and record what I am saying, and imagine I threaten you, you cannot use that in a court of law, if you did not advise me beforehand that I was being tape recorded. In other countries, I know it is enough for 1 of the parties to know. I don't know how it is in UK.

Tinkerbell43 said...

4P, isnt it true that for the secrecy order to be extended again it usually only applys for complex crimes relating to terrorism or major organised crime.

Rosiepops said...

Tinks

exactly so!

4portugal said...

Rosiepops, you are free to believe what you like. However, no Judge or Prosecutor would risk their career just to humour PJ.

4portugal said...

Tinkerbell, not only. I have heard in the news of other cases that are sometimes extended when these cases have to do with foreigners that do not live in Portugal. I was surprised at the number of extensions, however, I am sure that this case is being done strickly abiding to the law. In suspect the Judge knows full well that one slip is enough for him to be totally discredited.

Rosiepops said...

The telecommunications laws are very much the same in this country with regard to using phone records in a court of law I believe.
However, if you have good reason to see them then permission will be granted, it is called cooperating with the law.

How do you sit with the McCann saying to day that they have never been contacted by the Portuguese police regarding these phone records and that they have no objection to them seeing them?

Rosiepops said...

Who said that a judge would?

4portugal said...

Rosiepops, I do not understand this: "I notice that Arsabliar sorry 4 Portugal, has not addressed the points I made". You do not need to apologize to me. I do not why you are apologizing to me for points Arsabliar did not address?

Tinkerbell43 said...

What position did did Alipio Ribeiro hold ?

mark55 said...

4 portugal
From waht i have raed of the case the pj whilst suspecting the McCanns have not ruled out abduction . This means that the case could involve child trafficking and therefore this is a reason the pj could use to keep the secrecy in place .

4portugal said...

If the McCanns are willing to provide the records, then that is very good. However, the Judge has already ruled that they can not be used in a court of law, for or against (information Before May 3rd), so at this point, I do not think it makes much of a difference.

Tinkerbell43 said...

4P, you are sure this case is being done strictly abiding to the law ? doesnt that include upholding the Judicial Secrecy Law which seems to have been blatently flouted at every given turn.

4portugal said...

mark55, I don't know. All that was reported today was that the McCanns were arguidos for the things I mentioned before. I imagine the PJ will investigate everything of which there is any little evidence.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Exactly Mark, on the nail!

Christabel said...

Portugal's most senior policeman Tinks! what a joke that was lol.

Hi Mum and Mark!

Rosiepops said...

Hi Mark,

This is correct, this is what the Pj are probably using to keep the parents from see the files.

Why after 13 months and NO charges are they so paranoid about the McCann's seeing the files?

It is now time for the PJ to either charge the McCann's or release them from this status, it is absolutely ridiculous.

Unless of course the PJ have another reason why they do not want to release the McCann's from this, because they do not want to release Robert Murat from his status?

4portugal said...

Alipio Ribeiro was the National Director of PJ, Tinkerbell. He has been replaced.

Christabel said...

Mr Ribeiro, head of the Policia Judiciara, got his arse kicked for telling the truth!

Rosiepops said...

Yes we know he has been replaced, he has been replaced with with an ex PJ. IMO this man has been drafted in to be a fall guy.

4portugal said...

Alipio Ribeiro was not a Policeman he was a Magistrate. The person that replaced him is the first PJ officer ever to become national director. He is very well liked by the other officers, from what we are told.
Secrecy laws have been broken, without a doubt, otherwise, this information today would have been the first we would have received since the McCanns were made arguidos. In my opinion, secrecy laws have been broken by people somehow in connection with the investigation, from witnesses and from the arguidos side too (interviews, etc). They have all spoken when they should have all been quiet.

Rosiepops said...

When Alipio Ribeiro made his remarks, he said he thought the McCann's were made arguido's "too hastily".

Do you think he was telling lies?

4portugal said...

ROsiepopos, no arguidos, even if they are eventually considered innocent during an investigation are ever released before the inquiry period is over. That is normal, and should not be considered a reason of culpability.

4portugal said...

I think Alipio Ribeiro was a good man that expressed himself in a not so great way. I had a different reading of that sentence, but do not want to argue about it, because only he knows what he meant. His explanation afterwards, if it is to be believed, was different from how the UK news reported it.

Rosiepops said...

I am sorry P4 when i read you writing things like "he is very well liked by other PJ officers" this makes me doubt the integrity of your institutions.

I already am very suspicious of your police force and with very good reason, currently you have 4 members of the PJ and one ex member of the PJ awaiting trial facing extremely serious charges, if found guilty I understand the prison sentences are up to 3 and 5 years.

4portugal said...

That case will soon be tried and then we will know if those officers are guilty or not. In all countries police agencies have problems with some officers. Even UK.

Christabel said...

Ha, Ha, now thats a joke,
who gave the journalist the files in the Portimao police station?with all the witness statements phone numbers address's.
"GERRY"?
how stupid.

How many PJ leaked and got paid for it?
I thought colander's could leak but my god they are better than them! IMHOOC.

mark55 said...

4 portugal
What do you make of the following statement by
Antonio Marinho e Pinto,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7364181.stm

Portuguese police are now coming under pressure to make public the case files which, under judicial secrecy laws, currently remain closed.
The President of the Portuguese Order of Lawyers, Antonio Marinho e Pinto, told the BBC: "There are strong reasons to fear that judicial secrecy is being used... to conceal the fact that the police have gone down a blind alley and don't have a way out."

4portugal said...

Christabel, some journalists are like police, they do very good investigation. It is the same in every country. Portugal has a few very good journalists that investigate very well also.

Rosiepops said...

To keep people hanging on like this is inhumane.

If it is normal to keep people as arguidos until the end of the investigation, why does Murat's Portuguese lawyer and the McCann's Portuguese legal team keep requesting that their clients be freed from this status?

Surely these Portuguese lawyers are aware of the law in their own country, why are they wasting their time?

Murta's lawyer has been constnatly saying his client is going to be released from this investigation and it is nowhere near ended!

4portugal said...

Antonio Marinho e Pinto is very polemic (I think that is a word) in many statements on many issues. That is just one more. If he is right, then we will soon know. Also, how could the prosecutor and judges explain their constant requesting and allowing extensions? That would be very very serious, in my opinion and would involve two other institutions: ministerio publico and the court systems. I do not see them willing to put their head on the line for another institution.

4portugal said...

Rosiepops, every time a lawyer requests for arguido status to be removed,they write documents requesting this and bill for it. I have never heard of a case of an arguido being released while under "instruçao" (investigation), from what I have read, this is extremely, extremely rare. Also, I have been reading in the papers that his lawyer said this for months, but he is still arguido, isn't he?

Christabel said...

4p

I could be a good journalist if papers were deliberatly left open in a police station office,on a desk for me to see.

Secrecy Laws an all that erm "Hello"
Why would a journalist be in a police sation office anyway?

4portugal said...

I do not know CHristabel. From what I know it is not easy to get into PJ offices unless you have a reason to be there.

Rosiepops said...

Then the lawyers are making money under false pretences and they have to have their clients permission, who would give them permission to just make money for nothing, would you?

Christabel said...

4p

"I REST MY CASE"

mark55 said...

4 portugal
I hope we will soon know because the way the McCanns have been treated is in my opinion a complete disgrace , as are the pj .

Tinkerbell43 said...

4P, do you not find it suspicious that the reporter that obtained the witnesses phone numbers is related to Amarels lawyer ? bit too close for comfort wouldn't you say ?

4portugal said...

Tinkerbell, I do not know which reporter you are referring to but I am very surprised. WHich reporter?

Rosiepops said...

This journalist Felicia Cabrita, got hold of sensitive documents, witness statements, witness names, addresses and telephone numbers and this is so dangerous it could have ended in tragedy, have you ever heard of jury nobbling and witness intimidation? This is why we have witness protection schemes!

The really alarming thing is that no one in authority has done anything about this appalling breach of witness security and confidence.

If this had happened in this country there would have been an immediate inquiry into it and the culprit would have bee found and dealt with, heads would have rolled, they have for a lot less than this!

Christabel said...

Rosie,

you forgot to say she rang Jezz Wilkins at home!
We are expected to trust folks like this! Yeh warrever!

4portugal said...

Rosiepops, that is a very serious accusation. That journalist is highly regarded and worked very much on Casa Pia to expose nasty figures. She is very resourceful and may have found a different way to get the information. I would never say that without having proof for sure, that is a very very serious accusation.

Rosiepops said...

I have just told you who it was, it is Felicia Cabrita and she is a friend of Amaral's.

And isn't Felicia Cabrita the wife of Dr Antonio Cabrita, who is Goncalo Amaral's lawyer?

Goncalo Amaral of course was heading the investigation when these witness documents got leaked to her. I believe she writes fo SOL and she left a respected newspaper to go and work for a tabloid type newspaper.

If this happened in this country I among many others would be demanding to know if any money changed hands for this information.

Rosiepops said...

4P, it is not an accusation it is a fact and she admits it! She calls it "good journalism".

4portugal said...

Rosiepops, are you sure that is her husband, or do you think so because they have the same last name? I have never heard that she was married to an attorney. Cabrita is a common name in Portugal. I know three and none of them are related to Felicia.

mark55 said...

4 portugal

"I would never say that without having proof for sure, that is a very very serious accusation."

Thats a very interesting statement and one im sure we would all agree with .
However what we see everyday is posters accusing the McCanns of everything from murder to sexual abuse without any evidence . I hope you will join us in condemnation of these people .

Christabel said...

4p

Perhaps if you read more you may have seen it!
Try the Guardian newspaper Bridget O'Donnell, Jezz Wilkins wife/Partner, this is who Fab rang!

Rosiepops said...

4P and how else do you think she managed to get hold of those sensitive documents?

Who leaked them to her? Someone did and this is why it is so serious that the Portuguese government should have held an immediate inquiry to get to the bottom of who leaked these documents and if any money changed hands.

I would find it very hard to believe that someone leaked this information without being paid well for it!

4portugal said...

mark55, my opinion is that it is very dangerous to speculate. I do have an opinion, but I will not share it because I don't want to add fuel to the fire. I think it is wrong to talk about murders and sexual abuse. I also think it is wrong to talk about corruption and framing. I don't have access to the evidence and neither was I there to see it happened.

4portugal said...

Rosiepops, is it possible that anyone else in Praia da Luz had that information?

Rosiepops said...

Mark

Exactly well said, it seems people want to protect the rights of a dubious police source and a journalist to print sensitive witness information, yet are willing to stand by and witness on a daily basis the most appalling abuse of human rights against the McCann's.

4portugal said...

Remember that journalist also works closely with UK journalists. Could they have had that information and passed it to her, in exchange for a possible collaboration on articles/exchange of information?
Unless she said that is how she got it, I think it is possible she received it from other people. But again, I was not there.

Christabel said...

At the end of June, the first cloud appeared. A Portuguese journalist called Jes's mobile (he had left his number with the Portuguese police). The journalist, who was writing for a magazine called Sol, called Jes incessantly.

Rosiepops said...

4P how is it possible that this journalist got witness information , addresses and telephone numbers from anyone else in Para da Luge?

Are you saying that Robert Murat sold it to them, because he is the only other person I could think of that *may* have had this information as he bizarrely was allowed to translate in witness interviews!

mark55 said...

4 portugal

Then i hope your opinion is based on...""I would never say that without having proof for sure, that is a very very serious accusation." and you accept that the McCanns are innocent until proved guilty . As I understand it , as arguidos the pj could have insisted they return to portugal but they didn't .To me this points to the fact that they have no evidence , but you may think me polemic .

Rosiepops said...

4P why are you trying to defend her? she actually admits it and calls it "good journalism", there is no doubt about it, she got hold of this information and the only place it could have come from was a police source! Now the Portuguese government should have held an inquiry immediately and got to the bottom of it!

4portugal said...

Rosiepops, I am not defending anyone. I am applying precisely the same behaviour for all involved. I do not make serious accusations until I have evidence that they are guilty. I apply it to all. That is why you have not seen me comment as others about the McCanns.

Rosiepops said...

4P But you seem to be intent on ignoring the fact that this journalist is actually admitting she got this information, she calls it "good journalism" which I expect if I were in her position I would call it that too! I do not even hold her responsible for getting it, I hold the person that supplied her with it responsible, or actually totally irresponsible.
By the way I have never accused her of getting it from any person in particular.

But I am not an idiot, it must have come from inside the PJ, it could not have come from anywhere else!

Rosiepops said...

Christabel

Have you got the link to this story about Felicia Cabrita? I have been looking for it but I cannot find it and I know I saved it. I would like to show 4P that we are not just making this up.

4portugal said...

Rosiepops, unless she specifically said she received the information from the PJ, I will not comment on that. "Must have" is very dangerous. It is speculation like that that is being used on the McCanns to justify some of the most serious accusations I have seen written about anyone. I, for one, will not take part in it until I have more evidence.

Christabel said...

Snap Rosie just found it, it was thought Gonc gave them to her, now ain't that a surprise?

The first public indication of police thinking came at the end of June when the magazine Sol published a story about the McCann group, casting doubts on their evidence and claiming they had undertaken a pact of silence. It was the first time the McCanns’ friends had been named in public, but Sol’s journalist Felicia Cabrita had their names and phone numbers and details from their witness statements. She had called them all, and at least one other witness, Jes Wilkins.

The information had been handed to Cabrita by the police – she says she acquired the material through good journalism, which in a sense it was – and her source is widely believed by her colleagues to have been the former head of the inquiry, Goncalo Amaral.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3040094.ece

Rosiepops said...

Then where else do you think she got this from? Presumably the PJ keep their records safe and secure, where else did she get this from?

This is why I say the Portuguese government should have held an immediate inquiry to get to the bottom of this, find the person responsible and deal with them accordingly.

This would have been the thing to do in a situation like this. It is this kind of thing that makes me doubt the PJ, it makes me doubt the Portuguese government, because it makes me doubt that they care about serious breaches like this.

In a democracy you do not allow things like this to slip by unquestioned.

Christabel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rosiepops said...

Christabel great stuff!

That is the report I read.

Perhaps 4P would like to comment on this.

4portugal said...

Rosiepops, I have heard many Portuguese also doubting the government, but on the other side: that is, because they feel that the McCanns received special treatment and are being helped by "powerful sources". In the end, the governments never win, no one is ever happy with them.

As for the journalist, like I said, I do not know, and will not comment. The times is a reputable paper, but so are others and we have seen much information on this story that turns out not to be true, so I for one, will not speculate. If they leaked it to her, it was wrong and illegal. If she got it from other sources, then I take my hat off to her for being enterprising.

Christabel said...

Thanks Rosie took me long enough, I knew I had kept it lol.

4P comment on it, probably not!
Nothing to do with UK journalists.
Another home goal.
I do not make serious accusations until I have evidence!!

Rosiepops said...

4P I am not criticising her for getting her information she is a journalist and it is her job, fair play to her.

what I am saying is where she got it from must be investigated, because it is a serious breach of security. An inquiry should have been automatic in a case like this.

If we stop questioning our governments then we lose that frail thing called democracy. I can honestly say this, if I were Portuguese and regardless what I felt about this investigation, I would have been demanding my government hold an inquiry.

Today it is the McCann's, who is it tomorrow? You? Me? Some other family? This is dangerous and it should be investigated. In actual fact our newspapers would have taken this and ran with it demanding an inquiry, there pretence would have been hot air and jealousy that they did not get the info, but that is just the way it goes!

Christabel said...

Ha, Ha, just as I thought 4P.

Sol is just like the Sun, wrap chips in it!
Not so Fab now though is she?

Rosiepops said...

You have to admit 4P, all roads appear to lead back to Goncalo Amaral.
It is amazing nearly everything leads back to him in some form or another!

Christabel said...

You cannot blame the McCanns for Gonc's cock ups.
Special treatment? If what they had is special treatment god help the one's that don't get it!
You live in Cuckoo land if you believe the McCanns received special treatment and are being helped by "powerful sources".

Shame we can't say the same for the treatment they recieved from Portugal !

They did not leak it to her, they passed it to her!

4portugal said...

Rosiepops, I understand what you are saying, but had they been Portuguese, they would have been arrested for leaving the children alone. That is a crime and they admitted to it. This is why people feel they had special treatment.

Mum21 said...

4P.

If you call the treatment the McCann's have received from the PJ special....then heaven help the Portuguese people.

4portugal said...

Perhaps, Mum21. I personally have nothing to complain about in this respect.

Rosiepops said...

You see this is where i have a major issue when you say things like this.

Portugal has a problem with street children and child prostitutes.
recently it came out in an official document about human rights in Portugal that you have a problem with police and others in authority beating women and children.
Then there is the issue that one of your top politicians said that sexual abuse of children is not such an important crime to keep people locked up in prison for. (He was referring to Portuguese jail overcrowding).

The you say that anyone Portuguese would have been prosecuted for child neglect, I find that an amazing statement when you consider all of the above!

I do not believe they should have left the children, but the *fact* is that this place has offered much the same service and if they prosecute the McCann's for leaving their children, then they have to prosecute the others for doing so and they also have to prosecute all the others right across Portugal who have done exactly the same thing. Thus would set a precedent and open the flood gates and I do not think Portugal could cope with this and this is why I think thus whole thing is an absolute nonsense and no charges of neglect will ever be brought against them.

Now we have turned full circle.

Mum21 said...

4P,

You speak fluent English. Which is most unusual compared to other Portuguese bloggers I have come across.

dianeh said...

Rosie, Chris

I dont know about you but I get a bit sick of Portuguese posters who continually tell us that your press is incapable of translating basic Portuguese.

As if a paper such as the Times would not have the staff to properly read, translate and evaluate the court document. And then to be told that we (meaning the TIMES) doesnt understand is laughable.

Now if it were the SUN, then who knows?

4P can put any spin she wants on it,but the telephone calls and texts were disallowed. And there is no proof they exist even if asked for in court. Asking for them, when you have a very good chance of being refused, is no indication that such texts exist. And additionally, while the secrecy order is enforced, then we would never know if they exist or not. I doubt the PJ have to report back the results of the phone calls, just to prove that such calls/texts exist. I dont blame the PJ for trying to get the calls but once again we have the McCanns saying that some of these calls didnt exist. I would also suggest that the McCanns have their own phone/text lists from all phones, as the detectives would have used them to see if there was any clues as to the abductor, stalking etc. And probably Jess Wilkins phone, to prove that the reporter was continually calling him.

One thing I dont understand, is how the transcripts or any phone calls, or texts could be obtained now, after such a long time. As for phone calls, no way to know what they were about at all. Even if the number is known. Or are all phone calls for all people recorded and kept for a year. I dont think so. If they are then,heaven help us and for the first time, I would support the civil libertarians in their push for greater privacy protection.

dianeh said...

I also dispute that the McCanns would have been charged if Portuguese. It is not the nationality that has affected this case but the high profile of the case.

I would suggest that is it is not in the interest of justice to charge the McCanns with neglect or abandonment, when a result is not certain. After all, their own legal advice (according to yesterday's paper) is that they would not be found guilty of such a thing.

So it is just possible that with such a high profile case, charges have not been laid because they may not be proven.

Rosiepops said...

Hi Diane,

I also wonder about this;

At the beginning of this investigation it was reported that Murat said he had not spoken to Malinka on the phone, then the PJ discovered he had spoken to Malinka on his mobile phone, because they had applied for and received the transcripts of his and Malinka's calls.

Well if we are to believe that this judge has refused the PJ permission to view the McCann's phone records, then what on earth was the reason a judge allowed the PJ to view Murat's and Malinka's records back then?

Mum21 said...

4portugal.

Who exactly are you? You real ID?

dianeh said...

Rosie

I dont know.

But perhaps the are allowed access to see what calls have been made and received, but not contents of calls (still dont know how this is possible) or texts (or this??).

Also, if the PJ dont have access to any records at all how do they know that here are a certain number of texts to Gerry's phone. Did the request to the court name anything like this? We probably dont know the answer, unless it is in the judgement. And althought the TIMES is carrying a transcript, i didnt have time to read it.

It is all a bit puzzling. Now, I am wondering if the phone calls between Murat and Malinka even exist, or was this another leak/smear.

dianeh said...

This is from 4P's post.

The court document is not a leak. It is an official document covering a verdict by a judge on the ruling that content of messages (text and otherwise) prior to 3 May CANNOT be officially used.

So if to be believed, then it is about content. How cant he content of a phone call be retrieved, if not recorded initially. Also, texts. I can beleive a record of texts exists for a time, but for how long are they kept. Surely not indefinitely.

This whole thing reminds of the diary and the bible. Leading to absolutely no where.

Mum21 said...

Hi Diane,

I agree with you. There can be no content as regards to phone calls. In fact I doubt if there is content as regards texts either.
As far as I am aware the only records that can be obtained is a call log...with dates and times of calls and texts.
So what would be the point of a Judge refusing to allow a call log?

Mum21 said...

Right, I am off for tonight.

Good night all and God Bless.

Rosiepops said...

Hi Diane and Mum

I just think the whole thing was another ploy to blacken the McCann's names. The PJ asked knowing they would be turned down. That is just it, they do not know if these calls or texts exist, so who told them they do?

Also Gerry McCann say the PJ have not contacted them over these records, they also deny that these calls and texts exist, presuming that they can be checked, it would be pretty dumb to deny they existed if they did.

How did the know that 14 calls from an unknown number existed the day before Madeleine vanished? Seems pretty exact to me.

I think the whole thing is just hogwash!

Anyway apparently they cannot pinpoint exactly, this works a bit like a feedjit map and we all know how accurate they are!

Rosiepops said...

Mum

I agree, just nonsense, specifically designed to throw aspersions on their characters, how thick do the PJ think we are?

Goodnight mum sleep well.

Good day Diane hope you have a good one.

4portugal said...

Sorry,my fiance called and I have been on the phone with him

Mum21,

I am an English Literature major, so I have every obligation to speak English well.
As for other IDs, I am sorry, but I have no other.

4portugal said...

Rosiepops, when you say "if they prosecute the McCann's for leaving their children, then they have to prosecute the others for doing so and they also have to prosecute all the others right across Portugal who have done exactly the same thing" that is the point. Portuguese people who do this DO get prosecuted and the children ARE immediately removed from the parents. We all know that here. That is why you will probably not find a Portuguese person that does not consider that criminal. It is perhaps cultural, I don't know, but here it is contemplated in legislation as criminal. I do not know about in the UK.

dianeh said...

4P

I very much doubt you have any evidence, statistics etc to back up this claim. And I doubt that is is true.

Social services only remove children considered at immediate risk and will look at other remedies before removing the children. Your assertions are oversimplying what are very complex operations and I think you do a disservice to your child services system in trying to portray them in this way.

You are also assuming that the McCanns are in fact guilty of abandonment/neglect, when their own legal advice suggests that is not the case. And extemely hypocritical after making your long speech previously about not presuming anything, or did this just apply to the PJ and their associates.

Your double standards are amazing.

4portugal said...

Unfortunately, this is not so. I have heard of cases on tv of people who leave children to go to work and are charged and loose their children.
Obviously it is debatable if this is the best for the children, but it is a reality: to leave children unattended and leave the facilities is considered abandonment by our legislation. If harm comes to that child, it is considered even more serious.
Dianeh, you may not agree, but that is the law here.

4portugal said...

This is not about double standards. I do not know if according to UK law they would be considered as abandonment but according to our law it is so. That is a fact, it is not about double standards. As to the rest, I will not pronounce myself. But the abandonment, according to our laws, has been confirmed by Gerry McCann himself in an interview he gave to Sandra Felgueiras back in May or June. He admitted to leaving the children to go to the restaurant for dinner.
I do not know what information you are getting in the UK, but I have never heard their Portuguese attorneys pronouncing themselves on this fact. They have shown themselves quite reserved, stating only that the McCanns will cooperate with the police. I have heard very little else from them.

dianeh said...

No, 4P

It is double standards on your part. You will say nothing about the PJ, or the Cabarita woman because you say you have no information. Yet, you sit there typing in these things about the McCanns, based on something Gerry said on the tv,when any case will be based on more than one statement. It has been reported here, by credible press, that intent must be proven with any charge of abandonment/neglect (and they are referring to Portugal to spell it out for you). And there was clearly no intent to neglect the children. The regular checks prove that the intent was to care for the children.

Therefore, it is not a foregone conclusion that the McCanns are guilty of abandonment, as you profess. And it is double standards on your part for even suggesting it.

Do not speculate on the McCanns as though it is fact, and pretend that you uphold the innocent until proven guilty premise. You hold the McCanns to be guilty and go beyond even speculation by pronouncing it to be fact.

Completely hypocritical.

4portugal said...

You do not seem to understand, Dianeh. This is not a matter of whether you believe they were right or wrong. I understand that in your culture, some find it acceptable to leave children alone. Their spokesperson said on our national television that it is a cultural thing and that in the UK you do this.
In my country it is unacceptable and legislated as a crime. Furthermore, Gerry McCann on a program with Sandra Felgueiras admitted to have done this. I heard him. By our law this is a crime. If he were Portuguese they would have already been charged. Perhaps if charges are not brought it is because the Prosecutor feels that since it seems to be common in the UK, they should get a break, or if they do charge, perhaps their lawyers can convince a judge of this. However, even that is benevolence. If I go to the UK and commit a crime, whatever it is, even if it is not a crime in my country, I doubt I could use cultural differences as a defence and be released.
We shall see the outcome, if they are charged or not. However, I continue to say the same as before. Had they been Portuguese, they would have been arrested because it is a crime in our country to leave children alone without adult supervision and leave the premisses.And if you do not believe me ask any Portuguese person in the UK that you may know and I am sure they will explain this to you and you can see I am not making it up or trying to taint anyone.

Christabel said...

4p
They are not Portuguese are they?
There are plenty comparisons between Portugal and England I could post, especially regarding children in Portugal, but you wouldn't like them one bit!
If you enjoy bashing the McCanns daily so much, them why not do it on your own blog??
I know you say you don't have another ID , but I know you DO!

4portugal said...

You are wrong. I do not have other IDs. I am also not bashing anyone. What I am stating is a fact.
Is it not true that if I go to the UK and commit a crime, even if it is not a crime in my country I will be tried according to UK laws? I am simply applying the same principle. And I do not understand why you are being defensive.
For example, if someone from the Middle East, with very strict laws on how a daughter should behave, goes to live in the UK with their daughter and does not like her behaviour and kills her, will he not be tried for murder, because in his country his act is considered justified?
Why is that bashing anyone? It is a simple fact. There is even a saying "when in Rome do as the Romans" there is a reason for that.

helenm said...

4Portugal,

You say that to leave a child alone is a crime in Portugal and if that had happened to a Portuguese citizen they would have been arrested. I can tell you that in the UK it is considered a crime also. So you see there is no difference and cultures do not enter into this argument.

It would appear that differences would appear once persons responsible were arrested. You intimate that a Portuguese citizen would have been arrested and charged and found guilty of the offence simply by admitting to leaving the child alone.

Now this is where the UK differ from the Portuguese system. In the UK you may be charged with the offence but it falls on the prosecution to PROVE the offenders are guilty of the crime charged, in this case that the Mccann's were indeed guilty of neglect. The NEGLECT would have to be proved without a shadow of a doubt that their actions were unlawful. Not enough to secure a conviction depending solely on the 'action'.

Are you asking us to believe that the Portuguese system requires no proof of 'neglect' other than by the 'action'?

Rosiepops said...

Hi Helen

Good post and I would be interested in reading 4P's answer.

I might add that there are also degrees of neglect. ie someone going off for the night to someplace miles away and not bothering to check on the children at all, I would say is extreme and wilful neglect. But someone eating dinner 89 steps away and checking on their children regularly, is not extreme or wilful neglect, it is just naive.

this apartment is not that far away and it hindsight it was foolish to do so, but I would think that a judge would take all of this into consideration. Ie the McCann's were led to believe that PDL was virtually crime free and safe place for children, so they came to the conclusion that doing what they did was acceptable and i can see why they thought this.

Perhaps if MW and the Portuguese tourist industry were up front and honest and explained the *real* situation at the time, then the McCann's may have come to a completely different conclusion about this place being safe to eat dinner just a short distance away and NOT done it.

Culpability will have a lot more attached to it then just this neglect issue.

And if Portugal does prosecute each case as you want us to believe 4P, then why does it have all these other appalling issues regarding children? Because these seem to be at complete odds with each other.

4portugal said...

There are various levels of neglect and that is why the penalty can go from 2 to 10 years. I am not an attorney so I cannot get into much detail on this, but I can assure you that there are cases of children being left alone by parents who go to work and leave them because they feel they have no other solution and they get the children taken from them and get in trouble with the law. Is it fair? Not necessarily. Obviously children should never be left alone, but when we imagine a desperate single mother with no family nearby that needs to work to feed her children and that has tried to get help from the various institutions to no avail...is it fair?
I will not argue that legislation in Portugal on children is excellent. It is not. In the "best interest of a child" I have heard of appalling miscarriages of justice that leave children with feelings of abandonment. Judges particularly, I feel need to be more sensitized to what is best for a child and place that the emocional side ahead of legislation at times.
But our system is what it is. And I am not discussing if it is wonderful or not. What I am saying is something that I would venture to say that 90% or more of the Portuguese people feel. That if they were Portuguese they would have had the children taken from them and would be charged.
As for MW warning them of problems, I don't see what problems you are talking about. I am sure that as doctors the McCanns did not need MW employees to tell them how to raise their children. They might even have found that offensive. Praia da Luz is a very calm area, where nothing ever happens, except in the summer, like most Algarve towns, it fills up with tourists and is more noisy and "alive". I don't see what MW should have warned them about.
Regarding Hellen's comment, I would say yes. I do not know how it is in the UK, but here you are tried for the action you commit. Intent does play a focus in deliberating a sentence. For example, imagine a Judge feels justice is best served with a light sentence and the person has no prior criminal record, chances are they will get the minimum sentence (2 years) which he will suspend. If that person has no more trouble with the law during X amount of time, they will not serve one day in jail even.
As for this case, we will see how it plays out. I do not attempt to tell you what will happen. I am just telling you how we in Portugal as a society feel about the situation in itself.

One more point, that I do not understand. While the McCanns were charged within the 6 months of Madeleine's disappareance, none of the remaining Tapas friends were. Therefore, I do not understand why they would be affraid to return to Portugal, if indeed the newspapers are correct. For someone to be charged on neglect, I have always heard that charges must be filed within 6 months. A year has now passed. I do not think these charges could be brought up against them. Not regarding their own children, at least.

4portugal said...

This is just a side remark. I know it is not nice to talk about others but some things I can't understand. I was reading the site that is against the McCanns and it seems they have been discussing on most posts about how the Payne family just met the McCanns on the holiday. People make things up as they go along. Hear in Portugal we heard that the McCanns and the Payne were friends and the McCanns had even gone to their wedding years earlier. And that it was Mrs Payne that stayed with Kate on May 3rd. It seems logical that it would be an intimate friend and not a stranger to do this, when other friends are present, don't you think?

archer said...

4portugal

Correction, that is a SNIDE remark.

Why don't you get on over there then and give them the benefit of your wisdom?

Mmnn oh forgot, you can't can you?

Hum ho.....

4portugal said...

Why couldn't I? I simply don't because although I do feel that debating is very healthy, I think they go a bit to far and prefer not to take part. Some of them take freedom of speech a little too far, without measuring the consequences.

Mandz said...

4P alsabliar it’s quite obvious to most people who you are. You did make most of these lies mentioned above however I’m not surprised you deny this – it’s all part of who you are Alsabliar.

Two separate cases? They want this information for the one and only case the so called “investigation stage” if one can call it that. Or is it a crime to receive calls & texts these days in Portugal? I wouldn’t be surprised.

Is it a habit to make such catalogue of errors – basic police work as mentioned on TV which experts have commented on? I watched the police sitting in their cars on CNN at the border when they should have been checking and stopping cars however it was raining? Is it standard practice to put a suspect policemen involved in another missing child case on another case: Maddie McCann case? Here in Britain you would be suspended pending further investigation/trial outcome.
Desperado in my opinion they want “something” on this innocent couple whose child was abducted from her bed. What are they doing about this little girl? Secrecy bla blah blah..

REGARDS,

FOR MADDIE MCCANN

4portugal said...

Mandz, I find your post aggressive and incoherent and will not answer it. I am not here to argue and have not posted lies. And I already asked yesterday what Alsablair was.

Mandz said...

As for them not returning to Portugal. If I felt that I was being “set up” or had little faith in the police and judicial system I would not return. I would not take the chance as they have other children to consider and who would search for their child? No they are much better off to stay put and keep searching from where they feel more comfortable and confident.

Mandz said...

Whatever Alsabliar.

supertroll said...

Mandz,

This poster is not alsabliar but someone who has probably never even been to Portugal because she lives on the other side of the world!!!

Bianca,
You are such a nutter!

ST

Mandz said...

Ha supertroll! It did cross my mind! Thanks for that!


And hot head calls me aggressive!!!!!!! Pot Kettle Black… Bianca.

4portugal said...

Is this crazy hour? I am a Portuguese person living in Portugal. I am sure the blog owners can probably check that.
I will return when the more reasonable poster are on.

Mandz said...

You said it.. You crazy nut Bianca. You choose not to debate because you cannot and have no answer.

supertroll said...

Bianca,

Next time you want to visit blogs and try to annoy everyone without being rumbled, start afresh using a new id instead of recycling an old one.

Here is the proof:

http://www.blogger.com/profile/08754900655930129869 What I believe

http://www.blogger.com/profile/08754900655930129869 4 portugal

So Shirley Temple is Portuguese now...

This behaviour is so pathetic. You couldn't come across as more stupid even if you tried.

Have you even been to Portugal?

Grow up and get a life.

ST

chinadoll said...

4P,

I think the tragic case of Madeleine McCann has made families more aware and alert to the dangers of a possible abduction and that the McCanns, whilst doing everything in their power to continue searching for their darling daughter, are also promoting further awareness of child safety and at the same time, working with others to bring an Amber style Alert system into force throughout Europe.

You appear to be very critical of your pj for not charging the McCanns with neglect. Firstly, you should consider the human element. It has been pointed out to us by numerous previous Portuguese posters, that the pj are fathers, uncles etc and very family orientated. Some of them would have witnessed, at first hand, the McCanns pain, suffering and grief at the loss of their daughter and the thoughts they were having to contend with, as to what may have happened to her.


Secondly, I feel it is very likely that neglect charges were possibly considered/discussed very early on and that the pj would have sought advice from a magistrate or some type of expert on the matter, as to whether any charges would a) be judicial and be seen to be acting in the public interest b)have the prospect of being successful and c)if yes to a) and b) I believe they would have to question how Portugal and its legal system would be perceived by the rest of the world, whose press were camping on their doorstep, so to speak. To conclude, I feel the pj made to correct decision not to bring charges of neglect - this time last year.

Current talk/hints/leaks of future charges of neglect, have imo surfaced because the pj want them circulated to put further pressure on this family at the same time as point scoring. This whole nightmare has now descended into a tit for tat situation. I do not blame the family or their holiday companions for speaking out on tv etc, as they have been subjected to an absolutely monumental amount of disgraceful press and smears that could have had the ability to drive an average person to a mental health breakdown.

Arguido is now the only Portuguese word that many people know. The pj have become a laughing stock and imo, the errors and omissions they made in this case, will be studied and cited by police forces throughout the world, as what NOT to do in cases of this nature, as and when they occur in the future.

If charges of negligence are ever pursued, it would only serve to bring more shame on the pj and their methods (they would be perceived as spiteful and inhumane imo) and would also backfire imo and further affect their beloved tourist industry.

Yes a crime was commited. A more heinous crime would be hard to imagine. A three year old little girl was taken from the comfort and warmth of her bed, from the life of her loving family by an abductor. The abductor is the criminal, or are you not concerned with this aspect or possibly prefer some of the other theories being bandied about?

The other crime that has been committed imo, is the institutional neglicence of the Portuguese police, which continues to this day.

chinadoll said...

Well, if that was Bianca, my last post was a waste of ten minutes of my time.

chinadoll said...

4P,

If you are indeed Bianca, why adopt these aliases? The only time you have been deleted from this forum, is when you have been rude and offensive and at the same time used an untold number of expletives. If you want to debate the case further, you need to learn to control your temper - something that is only learnt in the University of Life.

4portugal said...

Chinadoll, I do not know anything about the actual investigation because I am not pj. I know the same as you, what appears in newspapers and which depending on whether you read the English papers say one thing, if you read the Portuguese newspapers, they say another.

I am not saying that the emocional level should not have been considered or even that it was wrong not to charge them. It will all depend. If the child was abducted, to charge them would only serve to cause them more pain and would be counterproductive. I see no greater pain than loosing a child.
However if they were Portuguese, I do not believe the PJ would have had such consideration. The truth is that we are a very-tourist friendly country and that tourists probably get better treatment than our own nationals. And I, as most of my compatriots believe that if the McCanns had been the Matos or Mendes they would have been charged right off.
As for the charges, we do not know which will be filed. It is a fact, according to a legal document (Acordão) that is no longer covered by secrecy that the McCanns are arguidos for abandonement, exposure, concealment of a body and homicide (I am not sure of the order or even if it matters). That does not mean they will be charged, but it was not a leak by PJ to pressure anyone. It is also not information that the McCanns would not already have. We, the public did not know, but when someone is made arguido, they have to know what they are being made arguido for.

4portugal said...

Chinadoll, my name is not Bianca, I do not know why those posters say it is.

chinadoll said...

4P,

Assuming you are not Bianca that is, I can understand your concerns about how the pj may have treated indigenous parents - one only has to look at how Leanor Cipriani (sorry if any spelling errors) was treated whilst in the custody of the pj and without legal representation.

Christabel said...

4P,

you may not be Bianca, but you are 100% "What I Believe", I bet you are going to deny that too.No matter how many times you say you are not "YOU ARE".
You need to cover yourself properly to tell porkies.
Why do you feel the need to decieve, thats where this blog differs, NOBODY has other ID's, we don't need them as we have no hidden agenda, any of us.

Supertroll you bet me to it,
I asked her this afternoon and she denied having another ID.

4portugal said...

Christabel, Supertroll and Mandz, I will not get into arguments about IDs with you. I do not know why you insist on that. I am not Bianca, Bianca is not even a Portuguese name.

Chinadoll, this is why the Portuguese are upset. One law for all, whether Portuguese or tourists, it should not make a difference.

4portugal said...

Chinadoll, I enjoyed these few minutes conversing with you. I must go now, but I will try to return another day. Have a nice weekend. Hopefully we will have good whether in Portugal and UK.

Christabel said...

4P
you say, However if they were Portuguese, I do not believe the PJ would have had such consideration.

We all know too well what would have happened if they were Portuguese.
This is exactly why the PJ have acted as they have, because Gerry and Kate are standing up to the bullies.

chinadoll said...

Oh yes,

The matter of the list of charges mentioned in the recent court ruling.

Hello? All possible scenarios appear to remain on the table.

What niggles me, is why after over a year, have they only now applied for the phone records to be used in a court of law? It suggests to me, that they have acted illegally in obtaining certain data.

How else do they know how many texts were sent or received?

Surely if they had formal permisssion to pursue this information, then, they would not need to ask to use it?

What other illegal methods have been used, apart from the monumental breaches of secrecy laws etc?

Christabel said...

What I Believe aka 4P,

Where did I say you were Bianca?
I said you are What I Believe, do you deny that ? of course you do.
You post on Clawds blog with that ID.

4portugal said...

Chinadoll, very briefly, in response to your last post, if there is even one witness that says they saw an abductor, it is the PJ's responsibility to investigate that too. I would assume that until they know exactly what happened, they will need to investigate every possible situation.

I don't think they only requested the telephone information now. It allegedly is in the september letters requesting UK assistance. I am not sure but I think probably theyr equested this a while back but since the case goes on the dockets for a trial date, etc, only now was its turn to receive a verdict. But this is me assuming, because I have no direct knowledge of what took place.
When secrecy is lifted, we will know everything.
I really must go now, but when I can will return and answer any post, if you leave any for me chinadoll.

chinadoll said...

4P,

Portugal and the world, know that child listening facilities have been used in most civilised tourist destinations for a substantial period of time. I believe the McCanns and countless other families considered Portugal to be civilised and this was, indeed, a consideration in their choice of holiday destination.

How can your people work at these establishments - hence, witness what is going on and how this system works, whilst accepting the financial gain of same and in the next breath shout 'injustice' ?

The McCanns will suffer until their dying day and question themselves over and over again why they even considered doing what they did and no doubt, wish they had not felt so secure in such a beautiful country and done what hundreds of thousands of holidaying parents across continents, have done before them ie listen/check at regular intervals.

The system, I believe, started here in Butlins Camps, where the red coats would listen at regular intervals, at the door of the chalets and fetch the parents if appropriate. I and countless others, accept now and because of what has happened to Madeleine, that this is no longer a safe or acceptable method.

Rosiepops said...

4P

If as you say that they would have had to have been charged within six months for this, why are the PJ making an issue out of it now? Surely this is a red herring?

This is my whole beef against the PJ, they are inconsistent and everything they do seems to be designed to cause this couple maximum grief, they cannot prove anything so therefor to save face they do things like this.

I think it is a poor show and it reflects very badly on Portugal.

Christabel said...

Hi China,

The 14 texts??
This was the rumour started by Alsabliar on the DE.

As you say, It suggests they have acted illegally in obtaining certain data, as IMO they have acted illegally with all the leaks!
Secrecy laws for the McCanns, PJ not covered.

chinadoll said...

It is not important as to when they requested the telephone information. Why the need for a ruling on same is the issue? How, if they are not in receipt of this information, do they know how many texts were made and on what dates?

What is pertinent imo is the fact that something official is released about the case, that will cause yet more controversy, at the time that some of the Tapas group have declined to attend a reconstruction.

Why a reconstruction after over a year?

Why a court order about telephone communications after over a year?

The pj imo have behaved illegally in obtaining the telephone data, just as they did in photocopying Kates diary.

chinadoll said...

Hi there Christabel,

Yes indeed, they acted illegally. They appear to do everything the wrong way round ie find information and try to make it fit. Even their own courts will not accept their underhand methods.

In the case of K & G, they had suspicions and have wasted over a year trying to find evidence they could twist to make a case.

Pathetic

Christabel said...

Hi Rosie,

It seems 4P is not going to deny being "What I Believe", but not admitting it either.
I think we know why don't we?

chinadoll said...

Of course, the secrecy laws and the manner in which they are observed, are an international joke.

They are a form of torture/pressure, used by the pj against anyone with an arguido status.

They should be done away with and decent legal protection should be put in their place.

Most of all, the officers serving the population and their visitors, should be accountable for their actions and or lack of them, whichever is the case.

Christabel said...

China,

How on earth can the PJ now be expected to be taken seriously?
Everytime I type PJ, I find myself humming "Bring in The Clowns".

chinadoll said...

Sorry,

Just got googled off with a 'server error' message - whatever that is?

chinadoll said...

And a post I made did not get through...urgh

Rosiepops said...

Hi everyone,

How can 4P say that they prosecute everyone for leaving their children alone, while one of their top politicians says that sexual abuse of children is only a small crime which does not need much jail sentence?

How can Portugal say that it will prosecute everyone for leaving their children alone, while they have been turning a blind eye to it for years? This has been happening in hotels and holiday complexes, so does this mean that the owners of these establishments are culpable too?

chinadoll said...

Christabel,

Indeed, the pj appear very blinkered. Portugal continues to be a macho society and they do not like to be questioned, or their authority undermined, even if.........no, especially if, they are at fault. They seem to like to play at cat and mouse, something Rosiepops just highlighted.

They are a proud nation and they have every reason to be - but, in this instance, they need to step back and let some outsiders in to urgently review the case of dear little Madeleine. I would urge all decent open minded Portuguese people, to urge those in authority in Portugal, to allow this action.
Pride has become the focus of this tragic affair and the focus needs to be directed back to where it belongs, on darling little Madeleine.

Rosiepops said...

Christabel,

It would be a very good idea for 4P to actually admit that she is also What I Beleive, after all if you are talking about truth and justice, it would be a good place to start.

chinadoll said...

Exactly Rosiepops,

Instead of continuing with their attempted crucification of Kate and Gerry McCann, they need to question and consider the way their own precious tourist industry evolved and what was not only an acceptable practice, but a very popular method of monitoring children and indeed, as you said, their involvement - directly or indirectly in same.

Rosiepops said...

What about Casa Pia? What is happening there? Is this case over or what? I cannot find much mention of it.

Hearing a case like this in secrecy in a closed court only breeds contempt and mistrust of a country's legal system IMO. As people will naturally think that guilty people are being protected.

I wonder if the case against the PJ detectives will also be heard in this fashion?

chinadoll said...

What gets me, is that Kate and Gerry have repeatedly said how much they love Portugal, the people etc - how grateful they are to the man/woman in the street, for their efforts prayers etc.

They simply want to find their daughter and have never intended to insult Portugal. In doing so, they have raised questions that others before them have been unable to do.

Personally, I continue to pray that this dreadful stalemate can be breached and the investigation get back on track.

chinadoll said...

No Rosiepops,

The case against the pj will not be heard in this fashion.

It is almost unheard of/unprecedented, but the pj will be tried by jury. IMO no honest decent Portuguese citizen that values their well being and that of their family, will want to sit on that jury and deliver an honest verdict or in other words, go publically against an officer of the pj.

It will be another stitch up imo, something the macho men of Portugal, are very good at.

Christabel said...

Rosie,
Exactly my thoughts.Is it August Gonc an co are up again in court?

China,
The problem is that a majority of Portuguese people are terrified of the PJ, this is well documented!

chinadoll said...

Christabel,

Which is why someone, somewhere, has decreed that it will be a trial by jury.

Christabel said...

Yes China and nobody will ever know the true verdict.

What did the driver get?
I think I read somewhere that he is now released from prison!
They should have got Life, the same sentence those poor kids got!

Rosiepops said...

China

I have said repeatedly that much more goes on and has gone on in PDL and that it is not quite this little sleep place it is made out to be.

I have stayed in hotels where there was literature warning about pick pockets and the leaving of valuables and has in fact highlighted the local crime, I have also heard the tour guides bring this to the attention of holiday makers on each package tour I have been on.

Why was the fact there there was a problem with:

People hanging around outside this flat.
There had bee intruders in the flat above the McCann holiday apartment and Mr's Fenn Had actually caught one intruder inside her flat.
Mrs fenn's daughter had also reported suspicious people outside.
2 separate nannies reported the same sort of thing.
A couple called Sixsmith reported strange people knocking on their doors.
Other people staying in thus flat just prior to the mcCann's had also reported suspicious activity.
did they know that Carolina Sanchos was almost abducted 4 months BEFORE Madeleine was taken?
Did they know that Rachel Charles had been murdered just outside PDL?
Were they told that 7 miles away Joana Cipriano had vanished?

I cannot help wonder if all of this was brought to the McCann's attention, they just may have made a completely different decision than to leave the kiddies like this?

Instead they were told the place had virtually zero crime and nothing much happens there.

chinadoll said...

I have read some posts about the Masons and their links to this case etc. That is nothing compared to the goings on in certain quarters in Portugal.

I am relieved and only recently understood, why K & G went straight to lawyers specialising in extradition issues, when they returned home to the UK.

Whatever the doubters think, their dreams will never be realised imo

chinadoll said...

Rosiepops,

If the McCanns knew then what they and others know now, they would not step foot in Portugal and no one could blame them.

I rarely visit central London and if I do, I will not travel on the underground alone or with company at certain times - for my own peace of mind and security. We, all of us are constantly making risk assessments and rightly so. However, when risks are swept under the carpet and only the glossy brochures portray what is happening, then that is a huge worry.

Christabel said...

Ha China,

The Masons! I always have to smile when this is bought up, it used to be a favourite topic of an old poster on the DE.

Like the UK was the only place there are Masons!
If you do some research on this you will find out just how many "lodges" there are just in Portugal, perhaps this is why there are so many back scrathers in Portugal and how things are covered up, as this is what we are led to believe happens with Masons, ah!ah! Works both ways does it not?

chinadoll said...

Anyway,

I am off over to our forum for a natter with friends in the private area.

chinadoll said...

Christabel,

Lodges are very popular everywhere and Portugal and their macho society certainly scratch backs well. They are expert at it.

See you over in the forum if you are popping in.

Rosiepops said...

Is this why they are having this trial by jury?

we already know that people are terrified of the PJ.

Just yesterday on this forum we were arguing the case that there should have been an inquiry into how Felicia Cabrita the journalist got all that sensitive witness information ie names and addresses and telephone numbers and witness statements, I pointed out then for a civilised country this was an extremely serious leak, which unbelievably NO action has been taken and that this was bad news witness safety, I also pointed out that this kind of this was how juries were nobbled!

How can these jury members feel safe to bring a proper verdict under conditions like this?

My fear is that the jury will be all brain washed anyway, how do they choose their jurors?

Only 3? How much involvement does the judge or judges have in cases where there are juries and why all of a sudden is the Portuguese judiciary wanting a case with a jury?

chinadoll said...

Exactly Rosiepops,

Very pertinent questions indeed.

Christabel said...

Rosie,
my guess is all the jury members would be EX PJ, so no problem there lol.

chinadoll said...

Rosie, Christabel and 4P,

Yep, Justice Portuguese style - but there is more than one way of skinning a rat oops cat.

If they think they are going to get away with this, they must be cocksure about it and that will be their downfall.

Never in the field of human injustice has one nation picked on the wrong couple and boy, imo, will they live to regret it.

Tinkerbell43 said...

Hi All,

Not been around this evening, but reading back there have been some really good posts.

Great stuff!

See you all tomorrow xxx

chinadoll said...

Hello to any Antis looking in.

Waves from Kate McCann.

If you believe that and any of the other crap your team leader tells you, please take a break from blogging.

Love CD.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxto you all.

Rosiepops said...

Night Tinks,

see you tomorrow, get some sleep.

xxx

see you everyone else just going to look in on our forum anyone else looking in fancies reading some lively posts or wants to registers, its free and friendly and loads of posters make you feel welcome.

Take a look

http://justice4mccannfam.5forum.biz/index.htm

Christabel said...

Hi Tinks,

How ya been?
Thank you for the card by the way!

China,
Or should I say Chinakate, wearing a bit thin now that one is it not?
They get dafter by the minute.

chinadoll said...

Hurry up and get your ass over there then Rosiepops, it's a hoot.

chinadoll said...

No way Christabel,

They could not get dafter if they tried lol.

Lots of Lurrrrrrrrve from

Chinakate

Rosiepops said...

I thought I was Kate? Who am I then? Oh yes I am gerry and I am controlling, now kate go to bed and do as you are told!

Rosiepops said...

Kate have you been on?

Rosiepops said...

Chris have you been on the forum tonight?

Christabel said...

Chinakate,
I think thats lovely change your name!

Rosie you are there again! you know you are given a name each night before you start and you always get it wrong.
"Tonight Mathew Rosie is going to be Sue" unless she changes to Gerry mid post lol.

Christabel said...

No not been in yet why?

Rosiepops said...

I thought I was Gerry tonight? but I was Clarence earlier (I was wearing a pink shirt)

Christabel said...

hey is this 201

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