Last updated at 08:37am on 4th March 2008
A British couple saw a package being bundled onto a jetski on a beach just six miles from where Madeleine McCann went missing.
The tourists had been for a morning swim just nine hours after the little girl disappeared when they spotted the jetski.
A man in a dark wetsuit was riding it, with a 2ft- to 3ft-long black package on the front.
He took it to a small "official-looking" grey boat moored just off the coast at Salema.
But despite reporting the sighting to staff at the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz - where Madeleine had been staying - police have not interviewed the couple.
Last night the McCanns' spokesman said they were concerned the Portuguese police had not followed up such a "potentially significant lead".
The new witnesses came forward after months of concern that the report had not been investigated by police hunting for the four-year-old.
The couple from south-west England, who did not want to be named, were visiting relatives Patrick Matthews, 37, and his wife Eliza, 25, in Salema, near Praia da Luz.
Mr Matthews said: "They were afraid to come forward but we know the police were informed of this, just days after, and yet we were not interviewed or even contacted."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=525568&in_page_id=1811
172 comments:
Hello
My Internet connection was rubbish again yesterday - at some point my laptop is going to be bungee jumping through the window without the benefit of a rope!
Today's newspaper article even featured in the Austrian press - which is unusual as there isn't much Madeleine news here at all.
The big questions would be, of course, why is this story coming out now - why didn't it come out earlier? Why did the police not investigate the story if they had in fact been told about this so soon after the disappearance? (I am not saying the bundle was Madeleine, but surely anything would have been worth checking out at the very beginning).
popped on briefly, yes, I know the feeling of helplessness when you want to hurl your computer as far as possible out the window. In fact used to be a TV ad of lady doing just that, the flex caught her ankle, and she followed it out window from 10th floor. Loved it!!
How many more stories arecoming out of the PJ not following up reports of suspicious behaviour/events when Madeleine vanished? I thought they would at least follow up every lead, even if to only dismiss it..... It is really very worrying.
The Daily Express briefly went online with HYS again yesterday but pulled it shortly after. Why? Is this to 'test the water' to guage public feeling or is it in view of any legal action by Mr Hogan? Seems most odd to me. No trace of any posts nor the article which was results of a poll.
Will see you later, gotta go now, back this evening. Have a nice day.
Good morning Sassy and Janegt, just thought I'd take a quick look see what's happening but not staying. Don't know about the PJ not investigating this Bundle you have mentioned, what was that in? Not done any browsing this morning, can't always find the time but am glad you lot seem to keep on top of events and happenings! Will be back. Doby.
Hiya Doby and Jane
This article came from the Daily Mail, but it was also in the Sun. Didn't check the other papers. As I mentioned it was also in the Austrian press and I saw it in Germany, too.
See you, Doby, when you come back!
Jane, am not really posting, just checking up on blog! Will be on later, however. Hope you are, too.
Both of you have a nice day!
Me
Sassyp - don't worry about your internet connection. Yesterday's news item in DE was nonsense but it did give the opportunity for many of the antis to vent their opinions.
Calcite
Wot even more than usual? It must have been a real gathering of the clan! All back-slapping and "you are so intelligent" and a few words of Portuguese thrown in in a superficial display of solidarity!
It was absolutely disgusting. I think this story has proven that we need responsible reporters and newspapers.
It was like homecoming week for some of them. Couldn't believe what I was seeing.
Back to the article - if it really is true, then Portugal should definitely review its' investigation processes. And I think some of the PJ's should be disciplined for their inaction.
I agree they should be made to stand up like most professionals and take account of their own failed actions. Why should they be allowed to get away with it.? What makes them so special and are they above the law..? What about Maddie she did not deserve this…
Thought you might like a laugh.
Wonder if Scotland Yard know they have replied lollollollollollol !
PMSL.
Oh my tummy hurts.
2345 said...
Felicity & All,
Thought Coldwater's (3 A's) - Reply From Scotland Yard would interest you -
Hello again.
Just had this sent to me from a contact outraged my Clarence Mitchell's conduct. Apparently this was sent to Scotland Yard and has been forwarded to Leics Police.
Subject: The McCann case and Clarence Mitchell
Your enquiry: The spokesmen for Kate and Gerry McCann has announced publically that he has been 'briefed' by members of the British Police with reference to the case of Madeleine McCann. As spokesperson for the two chief suspects in this case, and as there are investigative branches of this case involving at least one British police force, does this not cross the line and enter itself into criminality?
I would like a clear, legally explicit explanation of the position please.
If Mr. Mitchell has crossed any lines will this be followed up? Thank you
Confirmation: Yes
Wednesday, March 5, 2008 4:51:00 AM PST
confirmation- yes- sounds a bit james bondish doesnt it
Oh Puleeeese!
Confirmation: Yes.
Who are they trying to kid, (Roll eyes) Desperate times call for desperate measures, lol.
See you all later.
Someone sent a letter to Scotland Yard. Scotland Yard responded just 'yes' to the enquiry. Would like to see Scotland Yard's complete response. Not the person's name, address but just the complete response.
Hi All,
Just read that gobbledygook from ?Scotland Yard pmsl, sorry but I am.
This must be what is known as a "man of few words" errm one to be exact - yes.
Here is my response to the vacuous 2345 two words......................AS IF!
By the way does the outraged person that wrote this live in Tunbridge Wells or is that "disgusted" that lives there and not outraged? ROTFLMAO
Hahaha!
confirmation- yes- !!!!!!!!!!!!
Houston, we have a problem
“Confirmation……… yes”
You sound like a "DAVID BRENT" ..!!Type of person!!!!!
Mandz
Incredibly well thought out anf constructed reply that was...YES. LOL
Sorry but can I ask if any of you think this person 2345 is sane.
2345 said...
Anonymouse,
I'm very resolved in my care for Madeleine "... a certain blood spray ... commensurate with a certain type of broken larynx ... some DNA samples found related to cerebal fluids indicates a broken neck or fractured skull".
Do you honestly not care about who caused the horrifying and fatal injuries to an innocent child ?
Obviously not ..... as you've nothing to discuss with all those who do, you appear to be in the wrong Forum. 3.25 p.m.
05 March 2008 15:27
2347
Yes
who caused the horrifying and fatal injuries to an innocent child ?
You tell me you seem to now all about it, which is very very strange.
05 March 2008 15:58
Mandz,
I suppose "yes" is better than saying "Excuse me, but what the hell are you rabbiting about?"
2345
No definitely not sane. No sane person would ever make comments like that, where is she getting all this information from?
I know la la land where I think she has a house. you wait until she gets started on fooooorensics! lol
By the way Anon, 2345 picks a couple of words out of the dictionary and then writes her replies around them and that is why her posts sound so odd and her comments do not seem to flow.
As one word answers are the theme of the day, one word sums 2345 up........ODD!
Rosiepops you spoke to soon.
Did you know the forensics were presented to the McCanns at interview.
So the PJ lied the results were back before they left Portugal.
Well what about that tut tut.
2345 said...
dogmad,
Exactly ... the forensics were presented to the McCanns at interview - which they knew were true and were publicly released in Britain.
This was four months after Maddie died, by which time Gerry was deeply entrenched with influential people willing to back him.
The ploy from day one was to use the Fund undermine the Police and forensic evidence.
I e-mailed Jane Hill's report to Richard & Judy who didn't even have the good manners to reply !
4.25 p.m.
05 March 2008 16:23
I know la la land where I think she has a house. you wait until she gets started on fooooorensics! lol
***********************************
Hahaha my tummy hurts from laughing!!!
I am taking 2345 post and posting it onto relevant people.
Anon, so the Portuguese police admit they lie then? They lied to the Portuguese public, they lied to the Portuguese press and they lied to the British public? They must have also lied to the Portuguese Judge because at one point about 4 months ago he said they could not come to the UK and question the McCann's because there was insufficient evidence to grant the order!
This evidence that the now infamous ARGUIDO facing a court trial detective PJ Goncalo Amaral was supposed to be the DNA evidence in which he was waving at Gerry was, according to a newspaper report just something about sniffer dogs and not real evidence at all.
I tol you to wait until she started of the fooooresnsics again didnt I? lol
Richard Brown and Judy is the government official who received the letters...
hi all
could i ask you if you thought that it was sensible for gerry to say he trusted his friends 100%. Personally I wouldn't trust anyone and would want them investigated. It does seem a strange comment to make. What do you think? lorraine
Hi, Lorraine - no I did think the comment Gerry made about trusting his friends 100% of the time was odd. I would rather have them all investigated.
This is only my opinion and I could be WAY OFF. I think Gerry said that because he and Kate had begun to have trouble with the media and he didn't want his friends to be hounded the way they were being hounded.
Does anyone else have any ideas?
Yes wooram I would, if you know your friends well there is no need not to trust them.
Your friends may be different to mine.
Anonymous, agreed with what you said BUT the reason I responded with my reply was that there were 7 people (friends) at the resort. One probably would not have the same level of trust or friendship with all of them.
anon
Many people profess to know their friends well, even family members, but i think a lot of victims and victims families wish that they hadn't been so trusting with friends and family members. So I dont think it matters who has the best friends etc. In some cases it's even the people we should trust most i.e priests, policemen etc. So i dont think anyone should be too trusting. lorraine
wooram,
that is up to you, now as to the priests and police I can't say I would trust any of them these days especially in Portugal
calcite
thanks for your reply, did you see my other comment about trusting priests etc. lorraine
hi all
could i ask you if you thought that it was sensible for gerry to say he trusted his friends 100%. Personally I wouldn't trust anyone and would want them investigated. It does seem a strange comment to make. What do you think? lorraine
***********************************
Hi Lorraine,
I’m not sure if it really is relevant or not. Ok he said he trusted his friends 100% well maybe he does maybe they have all know each other for a long time and that’s how he feels.
How would it look it he went on TV and when asked about “ trusting their friends”…he said I trust them 99% then that would lead to all sorts of “suspicions” made on the friends by the public and media. Can you imagine the headline..?
Also he knows more about that night and perhaps can account for where his friends were times etc?
Even if it was a friend then perhaps this was a good move that way the person will not think Gerry is onto them etc? I honestly don’t know!
I don't know re that friends question either and in any case what does it matter whether he trusts them 100% or not? Gerry is not conducting the investigation, the PJ were (or were supposed to be), so it is again up to the PJ to investigate everyone properly including the friends and the parents and the staff at the MW Ocean Club, which they have schematically failed to do up until this day.
Also I agree with Mandz, even if he had suspicions why would he go on the record as saying this? This couple have been hounded to hell for far less than this, he would have told them to the PJ.
Blimey I can just imagine what would be said on here of he had said this.
Hi all just a quick one, we are off out for dinner. Another glorious day but rather windy!!
Rosiepops took a look at those shutters, look fine to me. Don't see how Alsabella could say any different.
Try to catch you all later.
Don't know why but googlre account won't let me sign in.
Calcite,
I agree with you re: G's comment about 100% trust.
This to me is more in keeping with how I would feel if my child was missing (it's about Shannon's mum):
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=524888&in_page_id=1770
Ooops just checked the time of Calcite's last post, I guess she's gone now.
Every lead no matter how small needs to be followed up and eliminated. I'm concerned yet again we are hearing of another potential lead dismissed. Just how much information has gone uninvestigated, hidden conveniently behind the Secrecy Laws, sadly I guess we'll never know.
Hi there Tinks,
Yet another lead, not considered/followed up.
How many more have been missed/overlooked?
Seems very quiet here this evening.
Re: Whistleblower tonight on BBC:
I am truly disgusted that MW continue to offer this “nanny listening service” which means the nanny listens at apartment door however they do not enter to check on children and I am also surprised at parents leaving children alone in rooms when everyone is aware of what happened to Maddie. Why is MW still offering this service..? They are encouraging people to leave their children just like they did with the McCann’s.
Hi Helen,
Glad you are enjoying the weather, it is freezing here! Still hopefully we will get a summer here.
Glad you looked at those shutters, I expect it felt really weird weeing that place for yourself and they were as expected fine! I am not surprised now why would Alsabelia say that? yet another doubtful comment from her.
Alsabelia (waves)
What do you say to that? The shutters are fine, not crumbling away as you said. Another time you have been discovered being economical with the truth!
Hiya you lot!
Just finished replying to e-mails. How you all doing?
Hiya Rosie
Love your friendly wave there.
Clawdia said that apparently she didn't subscribe to out posts, but she has "friends" (probably a euphemism for 'social workers trying to integrate her into society') looking for posts on here where she or Alsabella are mentioned.
Mandz,
I haven't watched that programme yet and will later are you saying that MW still offer this service? I thought the had pulled it since what happened to Madeleine?
People still leave their children even knowing what happened to Madeleine, not everyone is down on these parents like the antis would want people to believe then?
I do not understand though after what happened they would even think of this doing this.
Sassy
I hope Clawdia's social workers tell her what i said about Aslabelia telling bloody lies about those shutters.
Alsabelia has been caught telling more lies than Billy Liar, I am beginning to think that she lives some kind of Walter Mitty existence!
Chinadoll
It is very quiet, but there are days like that. Think of it as calm before the storm!
Rosie
Am sure the red telephone is ringing at Clawdia's parents' place reporting your comments (and mine, too of course!)
Sassyp,
I have no problem with a little bit of calm, nor, a storm hehe
China
I guess the excitement of HYS coming back up for about 4 hours was a bit too much for some! They are probably still winding down!
Cheekymonkey
Again what does it matter what any of these parents said? Short of it is, it doesn't, the PJ should have investigated the friends thoroughly as a matter of routine, just as I expect the British police to have done the same in the case of missing Shannon.
You could not get a starker contrast between two investigations than Madeleine and Shannon, as far as I can see the British police are pulling all the stops out and have done and are still doing everything they possibly can, not the case in Portugal was it?
Uncoordinated totally shambolic investigation from the offset until the present moment.
Rogatory letters where are they?
Hi all,
just watched Whistleblower.
Don't think much of Mark Warner care.
How many times have we been called liars ? by Alsabella.
They have nannies working illegally, who else ? None of these are checked out properly.
Has everyone read Supertrolls most recent headline on her site?
It demonstrates that a blog proprietor can be prosecuted and in that instance, it resulted in imprisonment.
Of course, the route of libel, for a finanical settlement, is also, clearly an option.
You know when this first happened I thought what on earth were the McCann’s & friends thinking when leaving the children?
I did hear that MW offered this nanny listening service but I wasn’t sure until seeing this on TV tonight. By them offering this “service” it is encouraging parents to leave children alone in rooms and building up a false sense of “security” that children are “safe” because most parents staying at MW holiday complex’s in different Countries are using this service and leaving their children “alone” in rooms whilst the nannies check at the flat doors however do not enter.
They should not be offering this service because it is wrong and children should not be left alone. Now I can see why the McCann’s felt safe. They were staying at this holiday complex which offers this service which parents use so it must be safe…
That is perhaps why they were doing their own checks whilst others used the nanny listening at the door. Building up a false sense of security to these parents..
Hiya Christabel
I saw an article about how easy it is to be a childcarer. Your CV is easy to fake (won't be checked up on)and you are just given loads of children to look after as best you can.
ROSIE,
Yes they are still offering this service in Egypt despite Maddie.???
Hi to everyone
I would just like to comment on the 100% trust thing.
Lets assume that Gerry and Kate are telling the truth (as we all beleive) and Madeleine was abducted between 9.30 and 10. I think Gerry most likely trusts his friends because he knows where they were. If they were sitting at the table with Kate, and with each other, then he knows they didnt take Madeleine. And as they all had children, Gerry is unlikely to think that one of them played apart in setting up the abduction. Also true considering they were friends before the holiday.
So I can understand his comments. And agree that without that comment, the friends would have been hounded by the press and the subject of even worse smear campaign.
Hiya Dianeh
I agree with you. You wouldn't go on holidays with friends you didn't trust either.
On babysitting service.
I would never use one. Listening at the door isnt even checking. I made this comment a while ago on here when we were discussing David Payne (I think it was him) checking on the kids by listening at the door.
I have at at times gone into to check on mine to find one asleep on the floor (fallen out of bed), almost falling out of bed, one had leg stuck in side of cot and couldnt move, missing dummy etc etc.
So even in a secure resort with security and gates (or hotel like resort) I still would need to check on them by sight. So safe to say, either the babysitter is in the room, or they are in the creche, or they are with me.
But I do understand how the McCanns and many others, including their friends were all lulled into thinking it was safe to leave the children. After all, what is the difference between them taking in turns to check or someone from the resort checking. NONE at all.
Hi Sass,
if you get a chance watch Whisteblowers on line.
I hope this makes people reconsider Mark Warner holidays.
When I rang them early this year, I was told it had only changed since Madeleine was abducted.
As was usual this was poo pood by the anti's.
All these lies are coming back to bite, me thinks.
I also read that article about the poor quality of childcare etc.
I was shocked and am glad that my children are looked after by their nana while I am working. There were too many horrifying things in that article to mention but I am surprised that the centres are not checked properly and the credentials of the prospective nannies/childcare workers are not checked thoroughly.
Disgusting state of affairs. Children are the most precious thing in our community and yet we cant even take care of them properly.
Dianeh
Yes I now understand they were lulled into thinking it was safe to leave the children.
One wee girl apparently climbed over this high wall and was found by the nanny outside the flat late at night? The pool was just yards in front of her. Anything could happend and the parents must be aware of Maddie?
MW should hang there heads in shame and what are parents thinking of when we are all aware of Maddie?
Hi Christabel!
People must now understand that the McCann's were doing the "same" as the service offered by the complex.
Hi Mandz,
bet there will be more comments from folks who haven't watched the programme saying the opposite lol !
How have they got the nerve to employ illegal staff ?
I hope this wakes Warners up, if not they deserve to be closed down.
Shows how much they care for the people who book with them.
Good night all.....
diane, if we are to believe the Tapas group, then not all of them were at the table the entire time.
And I thought it had also been definitively determined that the MW resort the McCanns and friends were at did not have a baby-listening service, only in-room sitting and the creche.
Nite and Bless Mandz x
sassyp 21.38 post. I watched a programme about a young girl going missing in the usa. She was found 6 months later in her mothers best friends house in the cellar.
Hi Christabel!
You always said this was true however the Anti said it was not and I was a bit unsure however I have the proof now and I see why they choose to leave their children and were lulled into this false sense of security.
MW is a disgrace and the parents who continue to do this are pathetic. Did you see the height of the wall that wee girl climbed over? Dear oh dear frightening.
I’m off good night!
Mandz
Night Mandz - catch up with you soon.
Anon
Hello
ALthough there must be cases where friends must have been guilty it's not the first thing I think you would think of!
For the attention of Clawdia's SocialWorkers
I hope you tell your patient that MW does still offer this baby listening service, you know that one that MW offered at PDL and was pulled when Madeleine went missing, the same one that Alsabelia said she confirmed with her contacts at MW and then later said she didn't.
The did offer this service and the fact that the McCann's actually went inside and checked the children means they operated a better service than MW.
Honestly what does this say about MW that they still offer this service after all that has happened about Madeleine McCann?
Rosiepops, you're right I guess it doesn't matter what Shannon's mum has said compared to what the McCanns have said. My mistake for thinking I could have an opinion about the subject.
Hi ya china
was that story on Supertroll's site concerning Felicity Jabe Lowde?
Sorry about the typo China
I meant of course Felicity Jane Lowde of course.
Sassy p/anon
Sadly it is a fact that most harm that comes to a child is caused by someone known to them
: (
Cheekymonkey,
Look beyond your nose.
If it is acceptable for a company to have a child/baby listening service, as MW had - which was widely acknowledged as a company that was a leader in its field, then it follows, that many parents would feel this a safe means of monitoring their offspring. After all, MW had and continue to have these facilities throughout their resorts.
Ask yourself why MW have never criticised the child care arrangements of this family. They have not and will not, as it can be proved beyond any shadow of a doubt, that this was normal practice in the industry.
Rosie,
still waiting !
Does it says that MW probably doesn't think there was an abduction?
Cheekymonkey
On the contray my mistake for thinking you were open to debate, can I help it if you do not like that other people have opinions too? get a grip.
Rosiepops,
Indeed, it was.
Whether a hotel or resort offers a baby sitting/baby listening/creche service to their guests, it is ultimately the parents choice alone as to whether they use the service or not. No one is twisting their arm to do so. Quite frankly, I would check out any such service thoroughly beforehand, just as I would check references of anyone coming into my own home to watch my children. Any doubts and I wouldn't use the service.
Night Mandz, sleep well take care xxx
Christabel
You still haven't got it? I do not understand, this is 3 times it was sent. Have you checked you junk mail folder?
Good evening All.
Just a quick visit,I watched the whistleblower tonight I am appalled That M.W. employ untrained staff with no reference checks or CRB. Child care in this country did no better with no real checks to ensure child safety. I am so glad I was able to look after my own children when they were young I would not like to have use child care Ofstead did not come out of this well they need to get there act together & do proper checks!! M.W. still employing staff without proper checks even after Madeleine went missing.......
of course it is up to the parents but parents are people and people have different standards and all people view things differently.
If the listening service is not safe it should not be put on offer.
You do not have balconies without rails do you?
Rosie, Chinadoll, Tinks, Jane, etc, etc. Hi there, have just read through a few of todays posts and the one which caught my eye was that of Anonimous (15.38)I now know who this Anonimous is.. He/she states, "he/she is resolved in his/her care for Madeleleine" and then goes on to mention "A certain blood spray COMMENSURATE with a BROKEN LARYNX.. DNA samples related to CEREBAL FLUIDS,a Broken Neck or fractured Scull.! This can only be the writing of one person and I just can't remember his/her name, but it will come to me! He/she forgot to add the rest of ths/her theory that Gerry in a violent temper aimed a blow at Kate, missed her head (at least five feet from the ground)and some-how struck Maddie (who's head would be about 3 feet from the floor)on her neck with such force he almost decapitated her. He/she repeated this nonesense over and over again on the DX HYS forum. Can anyone else remember the name? But rest assured he/she is one of the most determined and ardent Anti's immaginable. What was the name, must try and remember?
Seriously chinadoll, if MW is a leader in its field with regards to childcare at their resorts and you have the complaints about them that you do, then you really should be on all the other non-MW resorts around the world. One would thing they must be absolutely appalling!!
Rosie, nothing in there,
try adding it to one of mine.
Others from after 4 are fine.
Cheekymonkey
You can have any opinion you want - as can Rosie. There was no need for that comment earlier.
As far as kids usually coming to harm by people they know, I know that statistics prove this, but if they were your friends who you trusted enough to go on holiday with I really don't think I would think that they could be responsible. As Dianeh also said, they were together that evening, too, so the window of opportunity was very small.
I'm off now - hope to see you again soon here.
Ofsted and the government provide the guidelines it is up to the people running these places to ensure that they are adhered to. Same as MW, why offer a service they now know is flawed?
I do not understand it at all, it gives an impression that it is fine to do this if a resort offer it and it is not!
Hi and bye Christabel
Bye to the others - catch up again soon!
Bye Sass, i did reply to your earlier post.
Nite and Bless to you anyway x
Cheekymonkey,
I have not registered any complaint here this evening about the MW resorts.
I have merely attempted to draw attention to what I believe was the norm/acceptable protocols that existed at the time Madeleine and her family, holidayed in PDL.
I have never, personally, visited an MW resort and never will.
Cheekymonkey
Did you come on here to debate or try and goad me?
You made a point you have an opinion and I have mine and if I want to make a comment on the gross incompetence of the Portuguese police I will, they are my opinions and I will voice them.
The truth hurts.
Night Sassy sleep well, take care xxx
If this was the policy at MW regarding childminding, leaving children alone and just checking on them, this opens up a whole new bag of people to investigate. Ex employees, partners of ex employees, existing employees etc. So many people working in that hotel with information about how and when the children are left unattended and for how long etc.
Christabel
i will try again now.
Tinks are you here?
On reflection,
I hope every family that takes a holiday at a MW resort, or indeed, any resort, that advertises baby/child listening services, learns from the heartache of this family and does not allow themselves to be drawn into a false sense of security and employ the same standards, that were acceptable throughout the industry.
Hiya Christabel
Just saw what you wrote - will try and watch it - thanks for the tip.
x
Anon,
Indeed.
Sass, no probs.
Didn't want you to think I had ignored you when you said Hi.
Watch it and think Sass !
Christabel
I have to think? You are asking a lot of me!
Sass, sorry I should have left that bit off lol !
Christabel
have you got it now?
Sorry folks, it is just a flier Christabel wants and I am having trouble getting it to her, it is nothing, no state secret.
Rosie, no not had it.
Have you done a sassy and missed a letter out.
I will send you one and just reply to it, make sure it working.
Anon
That will give the PJ enough work until the year 2050!
Hi Im back, had to drop the little one off at pre-school.
Cheekymonkey.
Gerry and Kate knew where their friends were on the night. You and I didnt know, as we werent there. They are in a much better position to judge whether or not their friends abducted or had the time period to abduct their daughter or not. They know who was at the table and when and how long they were gone for when away, YOU DO NOT, so if Gerry says he trusts them ,then he will have a good reason for saying this.
As for using a babysitting service. If this is promoted by a resort or by a resort chain, then parents will be fooled into thinking that this type of service is safe. The McCanns were not the only people to do this, as many others have come forward over the months to say they have done similar things. Why then do they think that way, when they would never dream of doing a similar thing at their own home? The answer, is because it is promoted by various resorts around the world, including resorts such as MW that purport to follow world best practice for the babysitting, creche and nanny services.
Anon,
You raised an extremely valid observation there and yet, we here very little about that particular group of people and, as you rightly point out, their associates.
Dianeh
Nicely put!
Goodnight
Christabel
I sent it in two halfs, hope it gets through this time, I cant understand this at all!
Good night China take care and sleep well xxx
China
Night - now I am genuinely off!
Rosie had second half not first.
No probs though.
Sass thank you !
China 22.22
Exactly so and very well put.
Anon
About the group of people working at the resort. What you say is very true!!! And how many of them have been thoroughly investigated and interviewed. Were the people who left the resort immediately after Madeleine disappeared, tracked down and interviewed. Were the results of these interviews double checked to ensure accuracy? I have read (but I will stress that I dont have any proof it is true and I truly do doubt most of what is written in the press about this case) that many people staying at the resort and working there were never interviewed at all. Obviously some (hopefully the majority) were but the question becomes, how widely known was it that many parents were leaving their children alone in the room in the evening. If widely known then this means the net must be spread very wide indeed.
Rosie and China.
Off now Nite and Bless + anyone on I missed xxx
Doby
The poster you may be referring to in part I think is Irina, she certainly said about the spinal fluid, but I think the other one that carries on like this is 2345.
I just cannot understand how people think up these dreadfully gruesome theories because to me they seem to be a product of a sick mind.
Christabel
Good night sleep well take care xxx
Lorraine, yes I did - has something surfaced about the priest in Portugal?
Rosie
What beggars belief about the theories (such as this sick one) that even if you believe the DNA evidence as put in the papers (as the anti's do), there is still nothing at all to suggest such a scenario. Nothing at all.
diane, meant to say NOT release a parent from their responsibility.
Cheekymonkey
I didn't say that at all and you know it. Don't try and stir - it won't work.
Cheekymonkey
Keep it polite or don't bother posting.
It's OK Sass we have the measure of him/her.
Why were my posts just deleted?
Cheekymonkey.
Please do not mistake my understanding of how the McCanns and their friends could have made the decision to leave the children alone, as condoning what they did. I also believe that it was their own choice and that the resort is cannot take the blame in their place. However, if the resort knew the children were alone in the rooms, then they should have acted. They are completely at fault for that.
Also, I would like to add that before the infamous week in May, there had been other 'incidences (referred on this blog a few days ago)' in and around the resort of which the Management were (should have been) completely aware, yet no effort was made to inform parents of these incidents, even if not mentioning them directly, a warning could have been issued saying that children must be supervised at all times, or action will be taken.
A simple flier left in the room would have seen to that. At least then parents would have known it isnt safe. Re-inforcing the safety aspect could easily have been done without compromising their trade.
The resort is not out of the woods for reponsibility, but most of the responsibility lies with the parents. The McCanns know this. As Kate has been reported as saying (paraphrase only as dont have time to find the actual quote) how could we think it was OK to leave them alone.
Being human, they have fallen into the same 'trap' as many others but sadly have had tragic results from it.
We do not have to give reasons
Keep it polite!
DianeH
Sorry to do that to you, I have had to turn on no anonymous comments as after the other day and in view of what happened elsewhere last weekend we took a decision of zero tolerance of such users. We do notlike doing this, but feel we have to to protect out board members.
So it means that the anonymous you were debating with will not be able to reply.
really sorry about that.
Rosie
Were the deleted posts from Cheeky monkey or from someone else.
I was trying to have a reasoned debate, as he/she is making valid points for debate. But, seems as though some inappropriate comments were made during that. Im sorry that some cant just debate without abuse.
The comments came from cheeky monkey I had tried several times to ask the poster to keep it polite, but they were not going to have it and then I got another rude comment from an anonymous poster, not sure if it was the anon you were debating with, no way of finding this out. I am sorry Diane, I hate to do this, but these people can really disrupt the board.
Just like to re-iterate
I find it very disappointing that when trying to have a reasonable debate (and really talking about the level of responsibility of the parents and the resort is something that should be debated and able to be debated reasonably) that the other side so often descend into abuse.
I think that some of those expect us to change our minds. They dont want a reasoned debate (and looking back at my posts, I think I did that this time) and if we dont agree with them, then they get frustrated.
And if Cheekymonkey looked, he/she would see that I dont exonerate the McCanns from the blame of leaving the children alone. But neither will I exonerate the resort, as they are also to blame. Blame (responsibility) can be shared, in law and in reality.
Rosie
I agree with you, this blog is moderated for a reason. Sad that it has to be done but it does.
Diane
i think you make reasonable points and I agree with you. I think we agreed the other day too when we commented that the resort could have gone some way to warning parents that there was a problem in this particular resort at PDL, by simply putting some literature in each room and this could have averted this terrible tragedy.
I do not think that the posters where getting at you, they were being rude to me for some reason, because apparently they are allowed to hold opinions but I am not. Why people have to be so rude, I really do not know.
Does anyone know when the PJ's are coming?
Hi calcite
I don't know, I thought it was going to be soon the way the papers and the antis were all talking last week, bt as usual it has all gone quiet again.
And one more word on responsibility.
Although I feel that the McCanns are responsible for leaving the children alone, this in no way reduces the guilt of the abductor (and I believe 100% that there was an abductor). The abductor is still 100% responsible for their actions and when found I hope will receive an appropriate very long sentence. True justice will only occur when the abductor is found and Madeleine returned.
And although I believe the McCanns did not act as responsible parents on this occasion, I dont think that they should be charged with child neglect. If they are, so should any parent that has left their child with a baby listening service, or did regular checks. Or an parents that have made an error of judgement that has had tragic cosequences (and on that another child was run over in her driveway a couple of days ago by her father - should he go to gaol for failing to notice his tiny daughter behind the car)
But I do think that counselling/instruction should be given to them, in the same way it would be offered to parents in a less high profile case. And monitoring done by social services to ensure that the twins are cared for properly. The same as would be done for other families.
Rosie
I value the opinion of all regular posters on here, even when I dont agree with them. And I think the other posters do as well.
Thank goodness you have your opinions and stand by them, otherwise we wouldnt be here.
IMO, some of your arguments are way too good for the opponents and they cant find anything to refute them (for eg the trial of the Joanna detectives) and so in frustration the opponents just have a go instead. Seen it happen quite often.
Hi Clacite
Nice to hear from you.
hi guys am on late los to do
saw the prog on BBC re nannies at resorts, particularly Mw RESORTS a LITTLE BIT OF AN EYE OPENER BUT MORE A LEGAL DOCUMENTARY ON WHAT WILL BE GIVEN IN EVIDENCE IF REQUIRED. sPECIFIC REF TO mADELEINE AS HAPPENING between THE REPORT SO FOR THE PROGRAMME is most important. Not made after it, but before AND AFTER. It will be pounced on as Mcc propaganda. it is not.
I agree Diane with your comments about the McCanns not being charged with child neglect. And having to take child care classes - should not be different than any other parents.
Diane I agree with most of what you say. The point about them being instruction, I think they have learned the hard way about that, I don't think it will be a thing they will ever do again.
I am just watching that documentary about the whistle blower and the MW resort and quite honestly I cannot believe what I am hearing and how MW has the cheek to call their child care award winning!
A journalist has been able to be hired twice without their references being checked or checked to see if they have a criminal record. It is absolutely staggering, how many people have been hired by MW where their references haven't been checked or checks made to see if they have criminal records!
Also safety standards were terrible and frightening!
I would never ever go on holiday in a MW complex!
jane
I didnt see the doco (obviously they dont show us these things over here, not even the BBC doco on Madeleine - it was taken off and replaced by an asian based doco, as being more regionally relevant) but I read the article online about it.
I agree it is clearly not from the McCanns and any attempt to link it to them will smack of desperation by the anti movement.
Good nite everyone - hope to see you tomorrow.
Take care of yourselves.
Jane
On another note, have you recovered from your bashing on the DX the other night.
Rosie
We just had a week away in Adelaide (that was the week the DX closed) and took my parents with us. This was the only way that we could go out at night as my children are very young and get too tired if I try to take them out.
I think I would use an inroom babysitter but even then, I am not sure. Usually when we are away or travelling we take the kids with us everywhere we go. I havent had the availablility of a kids club or creche yet, but would probably use one. However, now I am s**t scared that something would happen to them in the creche because the workers arent checked or qualified. As if we dont have enough to worry about.
The bit about the baby choking on the apple really upset me. I almost lost my eldest to a bit of apple peel. Yet at playgroup their are mothers giving their children unpeeled apple all the time. And if mothers do, what will young girls that re not mothers, with no training do.
Not sure how it is over here. Our govt is pretty strict on childcare laws and enforcement. But it looked as though Britain was as well, until it was put to the test and found not to be enforced.
Scary.
Diane
What started it this evening was I answered a something that cheekymonkey had written to Calcite and cheekymonkey said and they started stirring it between Sassy and myself and cheekymonkey thought I should not have commented because he was talking to Calicte and not me!
ye Gods are they children? It is a debating blog, it is what we do here and so I came in for abuse.
Instead of coming back with a reasoned argument they go for the attack and they have to learn this is not going to be tolerated on here, or we will descend into the nasty unpleasantness of the DX HYS and we do not want this to happen.
Doppel
Why are you intent on raking all this up again? I have also seen some of your comments on the other site referring to us as the dark side, the twilight zone and the knitting circle.
Now you come back trying to do it all again.
For goodness sake man let it go, we are not interested.
Goodnight calcite
Speak later take care xxx these different time zones are pesky things!
Sorry jane hi there didn't see you pop up, how are you?
This was filmed before Madeleine went missing not after. What an eyeopener about MW!
to get back on topic Diane, yes, have not recovered, as expected saturday to be like that, so no flatter than usual....just the same. ha ha ha
I feel somehow the programme tonight which was started generally about nannes, filmed before Mccanns went to PdL, then on hearing about Madeleine, clearly they went back on to the MW recruitment scenario to film a 2nd review of what was improved. Nothing. Still chaotic recruitment. The 'listen t door' service which was why the McCanns decided to do it themselves within same time scales, was shown up to be what it was. A totally inconclusive service. Listening at a door does not provide any sort of 'service' for a child. Particularly if they are not there and you don't even see that. Ridiculous. It will certainly do all resorts a great deal o harm now. Particularly MW resorts. irst class service? Award winning? No. Even Butlins did far far better. That says it all. Clowns, chancers, and more. Chaotic rules and regulations not adhered to by the 'blind eye' guage. Full of what Esterh Rantzen would call 'jobsworths' and nothing more. S T I N K S.....
Doppel
Never thought for one minute the anon tonight was you. Dont usually care who it is if they cant be bothered to pu their name to it. But dont you always post here under your own name, as you have tonight.
I am afraid that I do not share your confidence in your friends over on the other blog. Even without any reference to us, they have shown themselves to be an uncaring and vicious lot. I provide as evidence that disgraceful letter to Mrs Healey.
I would give you the same advice you have given us. Do not always believe your friends.
Diane
I think we are always going to get a degree of neglect in some places, in every country as I said earlier the government make the laws and employ agencies to enforce them and it is up to places like schools, playgroups, nurseries and holiday complexes to comply with these laws, if they do not then they become unenforceable.
I would be scared too leaving my grandchildren, when we went on holiday we took the children with us, littlun was still in the buggie so she slept and when she wasn't I was there to take her and keep any eye on the others. I it's what us nana's are for isn't it? Only thing is when I get home I think I need another holiday lol
I love them all to bits and don't mind at all.
hI ROSIEPOPS
FINE BUSY VERY VERY BUSY...
It was I understand filmed before, then on news of Madeleine, filmed to see what had 'improved' ie nothing, after her disappearance and the documentation to me is conclusivehere for legal reasons to aid the McCanns. This 'listening service' sets a standard .... that standard being locals being 'safe' so neglect would be hard to charge and prove ad find gulty if that is what they offered, WITHOUT EVEN OPENING THE door.... omg WHAT KIND OF STANDARD is that for goodness sake. Either proved a service or don't. Don't pretend to. the whole programme showed from the start the inadequacies of the whole situation re nannies and checks and slack bosses, then it was compounded after Madeleine was missing, and how.....particularly the 'award winning' MW resorts. #
They will have to sell up now. No way they can survive this onslaught. No matter how you view the McCs you have to view MW even worse........no choice. It is there on film in colour......legally binding as the girl who prtended to be the nannie showed when she held the documents up to camera.
I see it is noted on another blog not to be mentioned 'no pros' were on the DE site on Saturday. Well, they were. None are so blind as those who cannot see. That as well as this programe which they will spin to be anti McC. as per usual.
They will be like lemmings off a cliff if/when M is found alive.......nowhere to go. What a lovely thought. Just as the daffs are in bloom too.
doppel
that's rich.
you are constantly on here moaning. You are on A's blog all the time posting what is going on here too. How dare you criticise anyone who wants to avail themselves of the whole picture as to what is happening if they wish to which is their right, as it is yours. .. blogs are NOT EXCLUSIVELY FOR YOU YOU KNOW.
Rosie
Mum and Dad loved coming on holidays with us. I particularly loved it.
But you are right, she went home before us and had a rest, prior to us getting back and receiving the children while I work.
Looking after the children full time takes a lot out of her and I cant even begin to describe how grateful I am to her for her help. The children are well cared for and coming on great.
Mum is great. I am very lucky.
Doppel
Good night to you to.
i REMEMBER ALRIGHT. wHY SHOULD i NOT REMEMBER? i DO NOT HAVE DEMENTIA.
i REMEMBER EVERY WORD, i STILL MEAN IT.
WHY ARE YOU HERE.? yOU NEVER DEBATE, YOU FINGER POINT, MOAN AND ARE GENERALLY JUST SILLY.
GOOD NIGHT. I WILL SEE PEOPLE I CAN DEBATE WITH ANOTHER TIME.
YOU ARE NOT IT.
GOOD NITE ALL.
Rosiepops
Tidied up for you.
Nite, nite.
Doppel
the thing is you made them and I do not sit watching her blog, I just happened to see them.
Why make them? you said the same things on the Dx yesterday.
Sick of the wohole thing and I wish you would just leave it alone.
here we were yet again commenting about this case and you come along and disrupt the whole thing by talking abot what went before.
I did not make posts on A's blog about it or come back here and mention what I read, but you did, if you had said nothing, nothing would have been said.
now do you mind if we let the subject go, these blog wars are boring me.
Rosie/Jane
I just switched over the tv to Foxnews. And there was a segment on the new mosquito - the high pitched frequency deterrent being used in US, Canada and Britain. Dont know if you have heard of it but it is a constant noise at a high pitch that people over about 25 cant hear.
It is apparently very uncomfortable for the ears of the young ones. What is wrong with the govt's in these countries. Surely it is child abuse to bombard little children, toddlers and babies with this noise. They cant complain, only cry and they will suffer more than the older children, as they are unable to move themselves away from it. Where are all of the anti neglectors/abusers now? This is the sort of cause they should take up, as it is likely they could stop this from happening.
If we get this here in Aust, I will be contacting everyone I can to try to get rid of it. Security/protection of property cannot be done at the risk of the health of our babies.
Good night Diane and Jane
sleep well take care and what do I say to you Diane? Good morning have a good day ;-)
Take care to both of you xxx
God Bless Madeleine xxx God bless Mari xxx God Bless Shannon xxx
This is so sad I wish these children could be found to give them and their parents some peace. xxx
Good night Rosie and Jane
Sleep well.
I will raise my post about the mosquito again. I would like everyone else opinion on it.
Diane
we are taking these things down now, i think they were not even that effective as all they did was to move the trouble away to somewhere else.
I did say that if this were my grandchildren that thing was upsetting I would not be amused.
Just another sticking plaster solution as far as I am concerned but the good news is that councils are taking them down now.
Where are the parents of these anti-social thugs anyhow?
Also not all youngsters are trouble makers are they? crazy!
take care Diane xxx
jUST THOUGHT i WOULD TIDY UP THE TRASH. GONE..GOOD.
nOW AS FOR THE MOSQUITO REPELLANT FOR UNDER 25'S NOT ON REALLY THEY NEED TO REVIEW THIS.
I thought rosiepops the prog tonight was started before M went missing, then they continued after due to this fact scrutinising further the nannie hiring practices??? It was I thought filmed in 2 parts.
Will speak to you tomorrow Diane, I enjoy your posts, but this mummys' boy gets on my **** all the time whingeing to all the blogs. Master of none. None at all. Sad.
Rosiepops just delete like the other blogs do.........why should we take this cr*p? He accused me on Saturday of harrassing and stalking him???? ha ha ha ha ha not if he was the last ant on earth.
ha ha ha ha ha
See you again when there can be reasonable debate without spoilers who divert the whole thing away from the topic.
It is simply not on.
see you all tomorow, good moring is it Diane? Oh dear It is 11.37 now so you must be the opposite.....no wonder I get confused.
speak again my friends.
;o)
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